- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
mackay11 wrote:
I’ve tried to ignore. It’s an obsession and I can’t help it…
It’s “those who…” not “those whom…”
Sorry.
:clap: Thanks for keeping things straight, mckay!
:thumbup: I too would like an introduction to know where the opening poster is coming from. What are his or her life experiences? What led him or her to come to this site? What is the motive of the post? When posted here, where the dissaffected, tired, worn-out, testimony-battered and confused people often come, the opening post sounds judgmental to me…as if saying “if you simply look at all the good actions of the church, any rational human being would see there is no reason to feel the way the disaffected feel”. Some might call the apparent judgmentalism of the post part of the unhealthy fruit many of us have experienced at church.
The opening post lacks empathy, and does not acknowledge the many mistakes church leaders have made that have propelled many of us to this site — the only place I’m aware of where you can discuss the undiscussable in a spirit of acceptance coupled with encouragement to stay active.
Although I want to be civil, I would like the OP to reconsider whether the strategy of simplifying the entirely of people’s life experiences (in my case, 3 decades of service in the church at all levels — Ward and Stake) into a single, simplistic scripture — is wise.
Incidentally, I have not “quit the church”. I am still active, attend 3 out of 4 Sundays a month (sometimes more), support my family in attendance, and my daughter just received her YW Medallion. She is planning to attend a church university, and participates actively in the YW program. My wife is active and accepts assignments in the Ward. I live my life in the church to always allow me to return to full, traditional believing Mormon status in the church if I chose.
mackay11 wrote:I’ve tried to ignore. It’s an obsession and I can’t help it…
It’s “those who…” not “those whom…”
Sorry.
It bugged the heck out of me, too, but I was able to resist.
SilentDawning wrote:I too would like an introduction to know where the opening poster is coming from. What are his or her life experiences? What led him or her to come to this site? What is the motive of the post?
When posted here, where the dissaffected, tired, worn-out, testimony-battered and confused people often come, the opening post sounds judgmental to me…as if saying “if you simply look at all the good actions of the church, any rational human being would see there is no reason to feel the way the disaffected feel”. Some might call the apparent judgmentalism of the post part of the unhealthy fruit many of us have experienced at church.
The opening post lacks empathy, and does not acknowledge the many mistakes church leaders have made that have propelled many of us to this site — the only place I’m aware of where you can discuss the undiscussable in a spirit of acceptance coupled with encouragement to stay active.
Although I want to be civil, I would like the OP to reconsider whether the strategy of simplifying the entirely of people’s life experiences (in my case, 3 decades of service in the church at all levels — Ward and Stake) into a single, simplistic scripture — is wise.
Incidentally, I have not “quit the church”. I am still active, attend 3 out of 4 Sundays a month (sometimes more), support my family in attendance, and my daughter just received her YW Medallion. She is planning to attend a church university, and participates actively in the YW program. My wife is active and accepts assignments in the Ward. I live my life in the church to always allow me to return to full, traditional believing Mormon status in the church if I chose.
This is kind of like what Uchdtdorf was getting at when he “there are some who will ask if this church is so wonderful, why do they leave…..it not that simple.”
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
I am glad Nebraska is kinder than Idaho.I am of the opinion that religion is very cultural. I see you edited your post. Hopefully that didn’t make you feel too paranoid. There are so many different reasons people are here. Blanket statements and the word “know” take a definition you may not have thought about. I have made a few blunders myself. I didn’t catch the “who,whom” issue. Hope you will still listen and ponder on what people have said. Great truths and great people here. Welcome!
cwald wrote:peteolcott wrote:I see the fruit of the spirit much more consistently in
every member of my local wardthan in any other church that I ever attended. I am convinced that this degree of consistency can only come through the direct authority of God. … When one judges the church by its fruits (good or bad) most of the reasons for quitting the church cease to exist.
Are you joking?
I noticed this is your first post. Perhaps an introduction would be nice. I would be interested to know what part of the world you live, and have lived, to come up with this kind of perspective.
I am dead serious. I have been an investigator attending church every week for about five years.
I added some details to my original post. I am seeking to conform to church standards as much as I can within the boundaries of my own personal revelation, some of which is not consistent with the views currently held by the LDS church.
Thoreau wrote:Can you say polygyny, curing homosexuality, guilt and depression because you aren’t perfect, Mountain Meadows? The list goes on. There is a lot of rotten fruit.
Maybe that is the reason why the Holy Spirit continues to confirm in my Heart that [Love One Another] is the
Only Correct Measureof moral right and wrong. Pete, first…welcome to the group. Can you clarify for me more of what your position is and what you are saying so I can understand you better?
Quote:When one judges the church by its fruits (good or bad) the top four reasons (referenced above) for quitting the church cease to exist. I judge the church on the basis of the consistency of the Love expressed by its members.
Are you suggesting you are more inclined to orthopraxy that orthodoxy?My next question would be:
Could you see that some people have really experienced some bad fruit at church, therefore, the top four reasons for quitting the church are indeed valid for those people, even if not for you?
Last question…I’m curious, but you don’t have to answer if you don’t want to:
If you have experienced the love of church members more than anywhere else, what has kept your from baptism?
peteolcott wrote:cwald wrote:peteolcott wrote:I see the fruit of the spirit much more consistently in
every member of my local wardthan in any other church that I ever attended. I am convinced that this degree of consistency can only come through the direct authority of God. … When one judges the church by its fruits (good or bad) most of the reasons for quitting the church cease to exist.
Are you joking?
I noticed this is your first post. Perhaps an introduction would be nice. I would be interested to know what part of the world you live, and have lived, to come up with this kind of perspective.
I am dead serious. I have been an investigator attending church every week for about five years.
I added some details to my original post. I am seeking to conform to church standards as much as I can within the boundaries of my own personal revelation, some of which is not consistent with the views currently held by the LDS church.
Okay.
I’m glad you’re back.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
Ann wrote:I would
neversay, even just in my opinion, that the LDS church is the “most righteous church on earth.” But I canimagine saying what (I think?) Pete is concluding after actually searching for another congregation. If having a flesh and blood congregation is important to you, and you try a bunch and come back to the LDS church, that makes it the “most” something. . . for him. 1) The complete and perfect lack of expressed animosity for five full years from anyone at the church.
2) Also the expressed kindness, generosity and consideration by many of the members.
GodisLove wrote:I am glad Nebraska is kinder than Idaho…!
Yes, indeed.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
peteolcott wrote:Ann wrote:I would
neversay, even just in my opinion, that the LDS church is the “most righteous church on earth.” But I canimagine saying what (I think?) Pete is concluding after actually searching for another congregation. If having a flesh and blood congregation is important to you, and you try a bunch and come back to the LDS church, that makes it the “most” something. . . for him. 1) The complete and perfect lack of expressed animosity for five full years from anyone at the church.
2) Also the expressed kindness, generosity and consideration by many of the members.
You will get no argument from me. Generally speaking, the mormon people are true.
I hope the church will learn and evolve to the point where they treat heretics and family apostates with the same love and kindness they treat investigators and members.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
Heber13 wrote:Pete, first…welcome to the group.
My next question would be:
Could you see that some people have really experienced some bad fruit at church, therefore, the top four reasons for quitting the church are indeed valid for those people, even if not for you?
Last question…I’m curious, but you don’t have to answer if you don’t want to:
If you have experienced the love of church members more than anywhere else, what has kept your from baptism?
1) The top four reasons listed in the reference that I referred to generally pertain to consistency with truth, and not fruit of the spirit. This same reference did indicate that some of the reasons were of the bad fruit sort, yet generally not in the top four reasons.
2) Doctrine of the Church (although the best I have found) is not consistent with personal revelation:
The Holy Spirit continues to confirm that [Love One Another] is the
Only Correct Measure or Moral Right and WrongRoy wrote:
As for the title of the post on winning back those that have left the church, I’m not sure that telling these individuals that Mormons have more “good fruit” than anyone else will be very effective.If some people are leaving the church simply because some of what the church says seems to become far too implausible to be true, such as the Book of Mormon mentioning “steel” long before it was understood to have been invented, simply change your criterion measure from [truth] to [righteousness]. That is the gist of my whole message.
I only pay attention to those aspects of doctrine that are most effective in my metamorphosis from the human nature into the divine nature, everything else I consider to be almost entirely moot.
If an authenticated manuscript arose where Joseph Smith admitted that he made it all up,
thatwould not shake my faiththat he is a true prophet of God at all. I’m glad you’ve come back to clarify and expand your thoughts and to give us more of a background on where you’re coming from. I totally agree with you with the idea of “love one another.” It is half of the two great commandments which encompass all others, and it is, IMO, the essence of the gospel. I mentioned earlier that one of the reasons I initially joined the church was because of the “by their fruits ye shall know them” idea. I still think this is true, but, as others have pointed out, there is bad fruit in there and many of the people here have had a taste (or sometimes several tastes) of that bad fruit. I didn’t realize you were a “dry Mormon” and in fact had wondered if you didn’t post just to stir things up a bit here, a hit and run as it were.
Help clarify something else for me. I think I understand you believe in the second great commandment as the core of your belief and I understand that you see members of the church as keeping this commandment (many do it very well, others are not nearly as good a it). On the other hand, you don’t fully buy into church doctrine and teachings. Do you really believe that Mormons are the most correct in this respect?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.