Women and Obeying/Hearkening Covenants

[Anonymous]

Ann wrote:

It’ll be interesting to see how long it takes, and what happens in the interim.

Yes. And I have to wonder if more of the young generation (including some of the young men) will be increasingly bothered by it. Maybe not in Africa where I have head the phrase, “The church is good, it teaches my husband not to beat me”, but in the western / progressive societies you don’t hear that phrase quite so much.

[Anonymous]

hawkgrrrl wrote:

LookingHard wrote:

I just don’t get how ALL women (or almost all) are not offended or troubled by this (“hearken” or “obey”). But then again, in my TBM’ish days, it only bothered me a little bit. But I think that is more typical of a privileged group not to see the inequities as bad as those affected by it.

Oh, it bothers me. Plenty. And always has. Women have a few key ways to deal with it: 1) they don’t notice it. That is only possible for older generations who always saw wives as subordinate to husbands anyway. 2) they hear all the things said for the men and assume they apply to both men & women which is easy since as a woman, most of the things said to men are meant for both sexes anyway. 3) they hold their nose and go anyway, assuming it will all work out in the end and the sexism isn’t from God. 4) they avoid going to the temple.

I posted on this problem here: https://bycommonconsent.com/2015/02/25/temple-prep-for-daughters-brace-yourself/

Thanks for this, Hawkgrrrl. I have wondered sometimes how my much more believing wife feels about this. She doesn’t go to the temple much either, but more than I do. That’s partly because it’s over two hours away making it a whole day affair and partly because she knows I’m not champing at the bit to go. There could be other reasons, but I don’t ask. My guess is she’s a number 2, but maybe she is a 4.

[Anonymous]

LookingHard wrote:

Ann wrote:

It’ll be interesting to see how long it takes, and what happens in the interim.

Yes. And I have to wonder if more of the young generation (including some of the young men) will be increasingly bothered by it. Maybe not in Africa where I have head the phrase, “The church is good, it teaches my husband not to beat me”, but in the western / progressive societies you don’t hear that phrase quite so much.

Right, women are experiencing the endowment in a context. This week I’m dealing with my North American daughters’ questions (and, frankly, dismay) over the rape investigation/Title IX/Honor Code Office thing in Provo. I’m trying to understand the story myself, and suggesting that there might be more to it, etc. I’m leaning towards giving the church’s flagship school the benefit of the doubt. But in their context, the endowment increases suspicion that Mormon theology is at its heart discriminatory, if not outrightly misogynistic. They’re trying to reconcile all this with lived experience in a home where their dad treats women well, and at church where they’re told polygamy is God’s perfectly loving command, etc. All of these things are part of the mix, and I don’t understand why the church doesn’t move to make our bedrock ritual one that assures women our theology preaches respect and equality.

[Anonymous]

LookingHard wrote:

I just don’t get how ALL women (or almost all) are not offended or troubled by this (“hearken” or “obey”). But then again, in my TBM’ish days, it only bothered me a little bit. But I think that is more typical of a privileged group not to see the inequities as bad as those affected by it.

My wife, who I love more than anything, is a woman who isn’t bothered by the language. She is very TBM and views it as my job to preside and be the leader. She doesn’t want to sit at the head of the table at dinner because that is my spot. We’ve actually argued about why I don’t want to *always* sit there. I don’t think she is submissive at all and she has quite strong opinions. It’s just that she was raised in an extremely orthodox LDS home.

On the other hand she doesn’t understand how I can possibly question modern prophets.

[Anonymous]

I apologize for my post above because I sound so caustic. In reality, I don’t expect the church to change much in my lifetime. I need to maintain a certain distance and get over it. A lot of my consternation comes from worrying about my kids’ futures.

Joni wrote:

And yet… God requires that I make covenants, and He will punish me for breaking them, knowing that the current set of rules isn’t the perfect set of rules.

I dont think He will punish us for anything that we did to become better, happier, more complete people. For me, that can only happen if I disregard some of the temple.

[Anonymous]

I imagine that heaven will be so very different from anything we have imagined it to be like. I think about some of the laws and customs of the ancient Israelites. Their way of life seems so foreign to me and yet we believe that they will be in heaven. Will the culture of heaven be such that they will be comfortable with their mortal upbringing and habits or will they need to make some serious adjustments? What about us? When we go to heaven will we live in nuclear families and hold FHE on Mondays? We could conclude that as time passes we are getting closer and closer to the mind, will, and culture of God on the matter – but isn’t that just our application of retroactive continuity to make us feel better? What if the ancient Israelites had the pure gospel and everything sense as been a corrupted form? What if in heaven we will need to live like they did anciently? What if the culture and structure of heaven is so different than anything that has been lived or experienced by mortal minds such that all will be in for a major rude awakening followed by some serious adjustment of expectations?

Is my vision of heaven any more or less valid than that of anyone else?

[Author]

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