- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
Roy wrote:
It bothers me that there does not seem to be a proven track record of leadership with these women. I would like to have women that have a history of making decisions independant of male oversight.
Lord forgive me…
They’d have to go outside the church to get that.
If we truly want that sort of thing it’s going to have to filter its way all the way down to the lowest levels of church hierarchy.
I think “god’s timetable” is often the answer when there’s an ideal that we want but the ideal is currently out of our reach. It might be something left entirely to chance or it might be a problem that is easy to solve but is impeded by cultural barriers. If the assumption is that being a SAHM is the ideal but conditions do not permit, god’s timetable. God will eventually intervene to alter the conditions.
If you’re ready for the one year waiting period to be sealed after a civil union policy to be lifted but the leaders aren’t currently willing, god’s timetable. Easy to rectify (or ignore) but the tail doesn’t wag the dog, eventually god will inspire a leader to make the change.
At times waiting on god’s timetable sure can slow down progress that we could be making for ourselves.
:angel: I think many people hold SAHM as the ideal. Maybe current leadership can’t conceive that a woman would hold up anything else as a higher ideal. It
istheir version of celestial life and they assume it’s the same for everyone. Of course I think I’m just rephrasing points already made. I think “God’s timetable” is just an excuse that someone came up with to explain away things like why prayers aren’t answered or why any other “promised blessing” hasn’t come to pass. There are other such excuses as well, but that’s all they are – lame excuses because people don’t want to admit that all isn’t as we’re taught in Primary. Since “God’s timetable” isn’t much in favor you may want to consider some alternative explanations, ones not in the CTR B lessons: God doesn’t know you.
God knows you but doesn’t like you.
God knows you but like teenagers that once leave home, you’re on your own.
God’s got better things to do than pick up after you.
God doesn’t hear and answer prayers.
God hears and answers prayers, just not yours (see above).
There isn’t a God.
GBSmith wrote:Since “God’s timetable” isn’t much in favor you may want to consider some alternative explanations, ones not in the CTR B lessons:
God doesn’t know you.
God knows you but doesn’t like you.
God knows you but like teenagers that once leave home, you’re on your own.
God’s got better things to do than pick up after you.
God doesn’t hear and answer prayers.
God hears and answers prayers, just not yours (see above).
There isn’t a God.
You mean God doesn’t care about my car keys? Even if I’m going to the temple? Say it isn’t so!
All this talk on the ideal of staying home with children, makes me wonder why they never tell you how to make it not be mind numbingly boring and depressing. That was my experience, plus having a difficult child with behavior problems. I finally realized that for me at least, staying home was damaging myself and my children because of how unhappy I was doing it. I’m going to be going to graduate school this fall and then getting a job when I graduate and plan to work for many years to come. (P.S. I do love my children, but I love them more in smaller increments after having had time away to miss them 
But again, why is there only talk that one “should” be a stay at home mom, and then not really much guidance on how to do it so that it is fulfilling or something. Also, not much support from the church really either. I bought into that when I was growing up, all I wanted was to be a wife and mother. I got married young and had my first kid young. Then reality set in! Reading the Proc on the family is what started my faith crisis. . .
DarkJedi mentioned that we are likely to get a new Primary General Presidency. Indeed, the current Presidency was put in five years ago, and that seems to be the normal length of service, so it is likely to happen. It is frequently the case that these women have served on the General Board. The current President of Primary had served on both the Primary and YW General Boards. The current First Counselor had served on the Primary General Board. So, just for fun, I took a look at the current Primary General Board, which can be found here:
https://www.lds.org/callings/primary/leader-resources/biographies/primary-general-board In Selection Bingo, I’m going to go with the following as my Dream Team entry:
President: Jean Bingham – She’s the only one on the board with an advanced degree (Master of Education), born in Utah, but grew up in Texas, Minnesota and New Jersey, has two children. No work experience listed, but I wouldn’t call that definitive.
First Counselor: Virginia Smith – born and raised in SLC. Has a Bachelor’s in Business Administration from the UofU. “Her career in hospital management and nonprofit administration has focused on serving children.” I also liked her favorite scripture, Mark 10:27. Anyone with a favorite scripture in the NT automatically earns points. Has three children.
Second Counselor: Reyna Aburto – She’s from Nicaragua, has three kids, has studied industrial engineering and computer science with an associate’s degree in the latter. But really, my main reason for putting her on my ticket is that she’s from Latin America, an area that is oddly under-represented among leadership given the membership of the Church there. The Church, after all, only publishes the Bible in two languages: English and Spanish.
I really could have put them in any order, but I went by order of education.
FWIW I got the idea there would be a new Primary presidency here: http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865625213/Preparing-to-split-up-LDS-General-Primary-Presidency-looks-back-on-5-years-of-service-together.html?pg=all ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865625213/Preparing-to-split-up-LDS-General-Primary-Presidency-looks-back-on-5-years-of-service-together.html?pg=all I like OON’s picks.
On Own Now wrote:Ann and West… two of my favorite virtual friends… Neither of you is a
failure. Knowing you from afar, I would say it’s very much the opposite. And I think this an important aspect of all of this. There is nothing wrong with people who marry and start a family early and decide to have the man follow a career and the woman stay at home with the kids. If that is what they choose, that’s great for them, and if they are are able and are successful doing so, then good for them. But I can also say with certainty that there is also nothing wrong with delaying marriage, having fewer or no children, staying single all together, getting out of a failed marriage, having the dad stay at home and the mom follow a career or having both parents work outside the home. There are so many “nothing wrong with”s that it seems totally unnecessary to pick one and call that one the ideal. There are pros and cons to all lifestyles, and individuals should be able to choose the one that they are most likely to succeed with. I love my children and am grateful that we were able to follow (generally), the traditional path, but I see in my children that they have absorbed their upbringing and will adjust their lives to match the combination of what they grew up in and what they want out of life. One thing the Church does so well is teach young people how to be achievers. And in the case of West and Ann’s kids, I’m certain that the tools exist to achieve success in whatever path is chosen.
Thanks, OON. I shouldn’t have used the f-word. I’ll have to hope that my kids adjust to their circumstances.I just wish the church encouraged the same
kindof achievement for boys and girls. Roy wrote:
Quote:I like alternatives and contingencies. Sounds like good planning to me. I just don’t like it framed as your life plan is what you do while you are waiting for God to drop his stay-at-home-mom opportunity into your lap. Our young women are still being told that they should pursue an education just in case their future husband dies or becomes incapacitated and not with the express purpose to actually use it in the workforce? It is a plan B.
It’s even a little more than this, I think. The lesson manual or teacher might make it clear that, no, education is not just important if your spouse dies, but also so you can teach your kids to read. The worth of what you know is in what it does for your family, not in what it means to you. I’m not saying it isn’t both, but the order is important.
We need to be careful not to read more into other people’s words than what is there, especially because we HATE it when others do it to us. One change in the General Primary Presidency. Jean Stevens has been released as her husband is to be a Mission President. I actually find this bizarre. There are 407 missions, and 407 Mission Presidents. But the Church called Mark W. Stevens to be a Mission President, which necessitated the release of his wife, who was one of only nine women near the very top of Church leadership. Also, having discovered that, I should add that in my initial post, I couldn’t find information about Jean Stevens’ husband, so I had put “unknown”. It actually made me kind of think that maybe she was one of us. However, I have been able to find out more. Mark W. Stevens is probably the wealthiest husband of them all. He’s a retired partner from Deloitte & Touche. Deloitte is a $34-Billion company that employs 210,000 people world-wide.
Anyway, here are the changes.
Out:
*Jean A Stevens – 1st C Primary
Education: BS Math (with teaching certificate)
Work Experience: None listed in Bio
MP Wife: No [But will be]
Husband: Unknown [Retired parnter, Deloitte & Touche)
Children: 5
In:
*Mary R. Durham – 2nd C Primary
Education: “Studied dance at BYU and child development at University of Utah” (no degree)
Work Experience: None listed in Bio
MP Wife: Yes
Husband: Founder and Charmain of Durham Brands, a 30-person manufacturing services company. Member of Global Supply Chain Advisory Board of BYU’s Marriot School of Management.
Children: 7
As I said earlier, I’m sure that they are all great people individually, but the change reinforces the gap, rather than alleviating it.
That is…really bizarre, I agree. hawkgrrrl wrote:Roy:
Quote:“”Heavenly Father has a mission and plan for each of us, but He also has His own timetable. One of the hardest challenges in this life is to have faith in the Lord’s timing.”Does this mean that HF’s mission and plan for each of the women of the church is to be SAHM?”
Oh, c’mon. You know that’s code speak for throwing a bone to the spinsters.
Be patient, benchwarmers. Maybe one of the leftover or divorced men will pick you at long long last. Then your day will come. If not, you can always look forward to Celestial polygamy.Old-Timer wrote:We need to be careful not to read more into other people’s words than what is there, especially because we HATE it when others do it to us.
Ok fair enough. I went back and read the original quote. Maybe I jumped the gun. There is some ambiguity about what is intended by “what the proclamation describes”, “the Lord’s pattern”, and “the ideal.” If those terms refer to marriage then it changes everything for me. I do believe in the benefits of marriage and healthy families. In the quote below I inserted my own marriage wording in brackets to demonstrate how it might change the feel of the quote.
Quote:May I point out something obvious? Life rarely goes exactly according to plan for anyone, and we are very aware that not all women [find themselves in a loving, supportive, and fulfilling marriage and family relationships] are experiencing what the proclamation describes. It is still important to understand and teach the Lord’s pattern [of loving, supportive, and fulfilling marriage and family relationshionships] and strive for the realization of that pattern the best we can.
Each of us has a part to play in the plan, and each of us is equally valued in the eyes of the Lord. We should remember that a loving Heavenly Father is aware of our righteous desires [to form and maintain healthy and commited marriage and family relationships] and will honor His promises that nothing will be withheld from those who faithfully keep their covenants. Heavenly Father has a mission and plan for each of us, but He also has His own timetable [meaning sometimes marriage doesn’t come as quickly or as easily as we would like]. One of the hardest challenges in this life is to have faith in the Lord’s timing. [For those without imeddiate marriage prospects] It’s a good idea to have an alternative plan in mind, which helps us to be covenant-keeping, charitable, and righteous women who build the kingdom of God [as singles] no matter which way our lives go. We need to teach our daughters to aim for the ideal [of loving, supportive, and fulfilling marriage and family relationships] but plan for contingencies.
It can be hard to say how much of the above quote was referencing marriage and family relationships generally and how much was about traditional gender roles. It is at least fair to say that the quote can be interpreted either way.
Here’s an up-to-date listing showing that the gap continues, even after the change in General Primary Presidency. The breakdown:
*Linda K Burton – General President RS –
Education: “Was studying Elementary Education… when she met [her husband]” (no degree)
Work Experience: None listed in Bio
MP Wife: Yes
Husband: Real Estate Developer
Children: 6
*Carole M Stephens – 1st C RS
Education: Studied early childhood development (no degree)
Work Experience: None listed in Bio
MP Wife: No
Husband: Executive of Medical Systems company with salary of nearly $700K annually
Children: 6
*Linda S Reeves – 2nd C RS
Education: BS Special Education
Work Experience: None listed in Bio
MP Wife: Yes
Husband: Investment advisor, Raymond, Reeves & Stout Pension Insurance Services
Children: 13
*Bonnie L Oscarson – General President YW (Used the phrase “Lord’s pattern” in her talk, “Defenders of the Family Proclamation”)
Education: studied commercial art at BYU. “Returned to school after 35 years and earned a bachelor’s degree with an emphasis in British and American Literature.”
Work Experience: nine years – early morning seminary teacher
MP Wife: Yes
Husband: Retail Executive, served as both a Mission and Temple President
Children: 7
*Carol F McConkie – 1st C YW
Education: BS English Education
Work Experience: None listed in Bio
MP Wife: Yes
Husband: Attorney, Partner in law firm Kirton-McConkie
Children: 7
*Neill F Marriott – 2nd C YW
Education: BS in English Education (before joining the Church)
Work Experience: None listed in Bio
MP Wife: Yes
Husband: well… he’s a Marriott… owns a manufacturing business
Children: 11
*Joy D Jones – General President Primary
Education: Associates Degree in Home and Family Sciences, BYU
Work Experience: None listed in Bio
MP Wife: No
Husband: Chiropractor, Clinical Nutritionist, Director Utah Wellness Institute, author of a women’s self-help book
Children: 5
*Jean B Bingham – 1st C Primary
Education: MS Education
Work Experience: some “time as a seminary teacher” (unknown duration)
MP Wife: No
Husband: Co-founder of the Chicago-based real estate development firm Hamilton Partners. Listed in Deseret News as #2 of the ten most influential Utahns of 2010, for his involvement with the revitalization of the downtown area of SLC.
Children: 2
*Bonnie H Cordon – 2nd C Primary
Education: BS Education
Work Experience: None listed
MP Wife: Yes
Husband: Was a Director of a software company purchased by Adobe for $1.8B. Six months later, he was called as a mission president; probably indicating that he fared well in the acquisition.
Children: 4
One thing I found to be quite interesting when I was researching this was that Bonnie Cordon’s BIO in the May, 2016 Ensign describes her as growing up “on a farm” where she learned “self-reliance” and “hard work”. While her father (Harold G Hillam of the Presidency of the Seventy from a few years back) may have been a gentleman farmer, the BIO failed to mention that he was also a dental surgeon, orthodontist, and served as president of the Idaho Falls Dental Society, Idaho State Orthodontic Society and the Rocky Mountain Society of Orthodontists.
As I have said before, I am sure that each and every one of these women individually is the right choice to be in her position. I have no reason to doubt that they are each capable, articulate, and dedicated women. But by collecting them together, the Church has set up a situation where the women of the Church find themselves represented by an elite fringe of LDS women who are wealthy on the merits of their father or husband; women who have lived idyllic Mormon lives where being a stay-at-home mom is a privilege of their financial status. I think it’s unfortunate that the Church sets up these organizations in this way. It’s hard to imagine any alternative other than that the collective mind of these nine women assumes that the “Lord’s Pattern” is the intended destiny of women and that anything else is off-course.
I have no ill-will toward any one of them; I’m sure they are all first-rate people. But the Church continues to be an echo chamber for what has long ago become impossible for the majority of rank-and-file members of the Church: for women to aspire to be moms with no need or even desire to work outside the home.
Unfortunately, I think this sets up most girls growing up in the Church with embedded guilt for any non-motherly successes. It’s not fair to them to be judged as not living up to God’s plan for them, simply because they don’t fit the mold of Mormon women from two or three generations ago.
Why is it that the only work experience listed for any of them is time spent teaching early morning seminary? Have none of them had any outside work experience – or is it just not relevant to their church leadership responsibility?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.