Women’s Role In Mormonism

[Anonymous]

There is so much I want to say, but I need to go set up for my daughter’s 1st birthday.

If you haven’t read “Dance of the Dissident Daughter” you should. it expresses things SO much better than I.

I am not satisfide at all with how women are treated in the church nor their perceived place in things. I am NOT an 8 cow woman to be tamed by a man and valued only for the livestock I can bring in. I am not the first to sin and the second to be saved. I am like Mary Magdalene. Whom Christ loved above all others, whom he took time out of the Atonement to comfort! I am a Goddess in embryo and I wish the Church would teach that. I wish that the Church would teach about Heavenly Mother and her role so that women can realize that they are a jewel beyond price not a servant to hierarchy. I HATE the YW motto that states “I am a daughter of a Heavenly Father . . . ” it SHOULD read “I an a daughter of Heavenly Parents . . .” WHAT ARE WE TEACHING THEM?! I only have worth if I am connected to a man?

I feel that women have been systematically stripped of their roles and place in the Lord’s church, I know the Lord and our Heavenly Parents weep at what has been done to their daughters, and that dogma of misogynistic dinosaurs perpetuates this oppression. I do not think that the average male member is aware of this, but I think it is perpetuated none the less through handbooks and manuals and “traditions”. And sadly thought women who do not realize that there is more/better for them. I feel it is only a matter of time before women will have a greater role in the Temple and in the Church administration. I think it will take a new kind of GA to fix things that I think happened because of BY and Kimball. We need men who were raised by strong post-feminist movement women, men who do not like to see women subservient and who understand that are NOT separate but equal to the Lord or our HP. We are just equal. When I’ve talked to my DH about this he said, “You must be feeling the same way the Blacks did before receiving the Priesthood. You have to wait for the majority of members to grow up spiritually about it”

I strongly beleave that women have their own Priestesshood that does not require the laying on of hands to receive nor to use in proper order. It is ours as a birth-right. I feel that we can bless others by the laying on of hands for many things. However, I do recognize that the Priesthood is the ruling athority in the administration of the Church – as long as that administration is not unrighteous dominion. There are days I have my doubts.

Women were Prophetesses throughout history; even in Christ’s day. Women are the key to heaven – They are the final administers of the ordinance of having your calling and election made sure. WE hold the great power of allowing men to enter heaven with us. I love this because it shows that women ARE important.

I have so much more to say, but know only that the place women have been put in by the traditions of the Church is one reason I am on this board. It is the root of my current Spiritual Journey. I want to know my Heavenly Mother and the power that She holds. I want to know what She does for us. I want to know Her purpose so that I can know mine. I want the Church to stop defining divinity as solely the realm of Man. especially when we KNOW it is not! This displacement of womanhood is a spiritual wound that will not heal and as I raise my daughter I see so much I want for her and much of it can’t happen in a church like the LDS is now. I will not raise her nor will my DH to value herself though relationships to men. I will not raise her to submit to her husband as an animal submits to an owner – which is the truth of it currently. I want the blessings of Heaven for her, but not at the cost of her self-worth in this life.

I cry often over this. I feel that the Church has betrayed me and generations of women. I wish daily for a revelation to make things right, but know that it wont come. I trust the Lord, but not the men of the Church.

[Anonymous]

Antiquarian wrote:

I will not raise her nor will my DH to value herself though relationships to men. I will not raise her to submit to her husband as an animal submits to an owner – which is the truth of it currently. I want the blessings of Heaven for her, but not at the cost of her self-worth in this life.

I cry often over this. I feel that the Church has betrayed me and generations of women. I wish daily for a revelation to make things right, but know that it wont come. I trust the Lord, but not the men of the Church.

I feel for the pain this kind of thing has caused countless women. Women have, in the past, had a rough go of things. It is indeed not the way of God. But sometimes I think we get it in our head that there is a particular notion, or culture, or teaching in the church (or any organization) and we tend to put a magnifying glass on it. Anything and everything gets interpreted to support whatever is under the magnifying glass. It’s a combination of confirmation bias and the spotlight effect.

I honestly don’t feel what you’re saying. I am a man and let me give you my interpretation. In priesthood meeting, and EQ we often have lessons about women in our lives. These almost invariably include disparaging remarks by the men about themselves, usually about how our wives are so superior to us, and we “married up,” and women are so much more spiritual, and are better organizers, and more compassionate, and blah blah blah. The remarks are always self-deprecating. This bugs me as a man in that we are perpetuating the culture you describe, but in the reverse. I point this out to illustrate that while you see things in the hierarchy, doctrine, and practices of the church that wreak of sexism (which I agree with) there is inequality in the other way too (although different in scope).

I don’t really get the impression that the church advocates the type of sexism you are describing, in spite of what the hierarchy, or priesthood is. While there is inequality in these things, the church busts its neck to elevate and lift up women. I agree that I am anxious for a day when women are given authority to govern their organizations without the need for correlation and priesthood oversight, but I am grateful that the church encourages us to elevate the women in our lives and treat them as equals.

[Anonymous]

As a more senior member, I was interested in the posts. Yes things have changed. I would like to make one thing perfectly clear. It should not be a men vs women kind of thing. I don’t know of one man or women who can recall the time when the choice was theirs to make …..to be male or female. Our turn on earth is to deal with the challenges set before us. I don’t believe having a bashing or a pity party will do either gender any good.

[Anonymous]

antiquarian, while there are many things relative to women’s roles in the LDS Church that deserve attention and discussion, imo, I can’t help but wonder about the anger that pervades your comment when the LDS Church is the ONLY church of which I am aware that even acknowledges the existence of an actual Heavenly Mother and godhood being open to women.

I am NOT trying to dismiss your feelings, but I do think a little perspective might be in order – especially when the constant message from the pulpit over the last 15 years has been a serious attempt to elevate women in MANY ways. I’m not sure if Pres. Hinckley had another issue that could be classified as his “soapbox” quite like the way women should be seen, understood and treated as equals – and, frankly, I think his near obsession with denouncing porn was a direct result of his abhorrence toward what it does to women in the minds of men who view it regularly.

[Anonymous]

To jmb275,

Dear jmb,

I did agree with your post and I want you to know that. As I posted under the subject, “Obedience”, the Pharaoh of Egypt ordered two of his chief midwives to deliver each and every Israelite baby and KILL all the infants that were male.

This, of course, is severe discrimination against male infants and it also happened under the evil King Harod. Historically, there have been many infanticides and genocides that have been specifically directed towards males, especially young males. Men seem to suffer disproportionately during wartime. Just think of the Vietnam Era Soldiers of which 58,000 were killed and tens of thousands were wounded – mostly males.

Truth is, any gender can be the subject of discrimination. Righteous Latter-day Saints should be willing to fight social injustice and bigotry wherever we find it.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

Antiquarian said…I have so much more to say, but know only that the place women have been put in by the traditions of the Church is one reason I am on this board. It is the root of my current Spiritual Journey. I want to know my Heavenly Mother and the power that She holds. I want to know what She does for us. I want to know Her purpose so that I can know mine. I want the Church to stop defining divinity as solely the realm of Man. especially when we KNOW it is not! This displacement of womanhood is a spiritual wound that will not heal and as I raise my daughter I see so much I want for her and much of it can’t happen in a church like the LDS is now. I will not raise her nor will my DH to value herself though relationships to men. I will not raise her to submit to her husband as an animal submits to an owner – which is the truth of it currently. I want the blessings of Heaven for her, but not at the cost of her self-worth in this life.

I cry often over this. I feel that the Church has betrayed me and generations of women. I wish daily for a revelation to make things right, but know that it wont come. I trust the Lord, but not the men of the Church.

Last week I talked to my ex-wife for the first time in over thirty years, we both had a wonderful visit. One of the things that made it so good was my frank admission that the only thing that was wrong with my ex-wife was the ignorant turkey she had been married too. Even though that person (me) has changed, it’s the kind of evolution I believe in. I believe in the evolution of the church, it’s members and society can change, I believe that God and the church leadership could change faster than we members are prepared for. The leadership has always led the way in encouraging the membership to treat women in an equitable manner, and in The Proclamation of the Family has put her on an equal footing. God and his leaders can only call, if we as members do not heed the call, he will not force us. Because these changes are so interactive between God, the leadership and man, I’m sure it gets hard to know just who to blame for how long it takes for change to be brought about. The safest bet for me is to trust God and his leaders, that he will not allow them to miss the mark to far. I have told women the best insurance they can have for a good life that includes a man is the ability to pick the right one. God grant me the serenity to change the things I can, to accept the things I cannot change, and the wisdom to know the difference. Author unknown.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

I want the Church to stop defining divinity as solely the realm of Man. especially when we KNOW it is not! This displacement of womanhood is a spiritual wound that will not heal and as I raise my daughter I see so much I want for her and much of it can’t happen in a church like the LDS is now. I will not raise her nor will my DH to value herself though relationships to men. I will not raise her to submit to her husband as an animal submits to an owner – which is the truth of it currently.

I tried to respond softly in my previous comment, but I simply have to say that the quote above simply doesn’t convey what the Church actually teaches. In fact, the animal comparison is flat-out wrong – both to portray the teachings AND the experience of the large majority of women in the Church. I simply can’t let that comparison stand without challenge, since it ABSOLUTELY is NOT the “truth of it currently”.

If ANY woman lives in that type of relationship while married to an LDS man, it is because that man is NOT living the Gospel as taught by “The Church”. In fact, it is because that man is living in direct opposition to the teachings of the Church. It simply is not the experience of most women in the Church.

[Anonymous]

I wasn’t going to comment but I do have an observation that I think pertains to some of the recent posts.

Ray mentioned the anti-porn crusade by GBH and it made me think of the breast augmentation craze by women in the church, especially of my generation, particularly in the inner-mountain west/california.

I know that it’s probably more of a socio-economic phenomenon, but I can’t help but wonder what the underlying message/meaning of it is in the culture. Does it speak subtly to the roles of women that are held culturally? Is it just members playing out the normal processes of other non-lds women in a peer demographic?

[Anonymous]

Quote:

Does it speak subtly to the roles of women that are held culturally? Is it just members playing out the normal processes of other non-lds women in a peer demographic?

It’s an evolutionary manifestation of the “natural” (wo)man to which, unfortunately, LDS men and women are not immune. It reminds me of a “rejected state motto” joke that I heard years ago that says so much about culture:

Quote:

California – By 30, our women have more plastic than your Honda.

[Anonymous]

Antiquarian wrote:

I cry often over this. I feel that the Church has betrayed me and generations of women. I wish daily for a revelation to make things right, but know that it wont come. I trust the Lord, but not the men of the Church.

I would cry if I *knew* that revelation wouldn’t come. You trust the Lord, and He is the One that gives revelation via the Holy Ghost, not the “men of the Church”. So, why reject the possibility?

Wait…!! Do you mean, revelation to the “men of the Church”? I had not thought of reading it that way. For you personally, is that what you meant? As a mystic, I don’t really wait on the “men” for much of anything. I give unto Caesar, etc. but don’t depend on them for my relationship to Deity.

HiJolly

[Anonymous]

swimordie wrote:

I wasn’t going to comment but I do have an observation that I think pertains to some of the recent posts.

Ray mentioned the anti-porn crusade by GBH and it made me think of the breast augmentation craze by women in the church, especially of my generation, particularly in the inner-mountain west/california.

I know that it’s probably more of a socio-economic phenomenon, but I can’t help but wonder what the underlying message/meaning of it is in the culture. Does it speak subtly to the roles of women that are held culturally? Is it just members playing out the normal processes of other non-lds women in a peer demographic?

I’ll bet YOU know the answer to your question, swim . My wife works for a plastic surgeon in Orem, and there is a consistent pattern in the patients. Of course there is also a lot of tummy tucks/lipo as well, and because of the higher numbers of babies in the culture, the “baby fat” thing is understandable.

BUt I think the main answer you are looking for is that probably more than outside the church, there is a “gotta be perfect, gotta appear good for others” sort of drive in many LDS women. Again, looking for validation outside rather than inside. However, I also see a positive…I think LDS women are evolving to a more open and comfortable attitude of sexuality…something more hush-hush in previous decades. As a warm-blooded normal male, I’m happy to see this! 😆 😳 😈

[Anonymous]

antiquarian – I used to feel very much as you do when I was much younger, based almost solely on a few things that bothered me:

– that marriage was a constant topic for single women at BYU

– that women at BYU were neither encouraged not discouraged from going on missions

– that the church had a history of polygamy

As jmb described, I then used spotlight effect and confirmation bias to add to that picture

– because I couldn’t reconcile polygamy, it seemed obvious it was a misogynistic devise to further restrict the rights of women.

– because there was so much talk about marriage, clearly women were only valued as wives and not as people in their own right.

– because women weren’t encouraged to go on missions, it was evident that the church considered them spiritually inferior or less important than men.

Now, with another 20 years under my belt, I have reached a more complex and nuanced perspective on some of these same conclusions:

– women at BYU were obsessed with marriage for a variety of reasons: fear of the future, sexual desires, wanting to be viewed as a grown-up, etc. They were just barely adults with varying intellectual gifts and talents.

– many in the church view parenthood as equal between men and women, not expecting women to do the bulk of the work, but expecting both to be equally involved and committed to the home. This is the norm I most frequently see in practice. Men in the church change diapers. They cook and clean. They wipe boogers off kids’ faces with their bare hands (if anyone does).

– the church has to do twice as much to keep men in as they do women. I don’t think that’s because women are more spiritual. Women are more socially connected than the men at church typically. A man is connected more often through his wife and kids. A woman is often independently connected through her female friends and support network.

[Anonymous]

I would like to apologize if I hurt anyones feelings over what I inarticulately said.

I honestly feel that Patriarchy hurts men as well as women. I do understand that LDS is the only Christian group that knows of a Heavenly Mother. I just wish we actually talked about Her insted of hiding behind a tradition of “oh, She’s too important”. Is She more important that Heavenly Father? Can’t we learn of them both? I just wish we had lessons in Church about Her and Her role in our lives.

What I meant to say about the revelations coming is in my life time. As to the husband wife relationship I do not like that we must “submit” that is to say yield to a perceived “superior authority” or to refer to someone else in our relationship to our HP. I use to strong an image, but what came to mind was Johnny Lingo and my worth being in cows and that I only am beautiful after I’m married. My DH isn’t LDS and when I’ve told him about the Temple and the wording of this covenant he told me that he believes it is wrong and that God wouldn’t make a spouse submit spiritually to another at all. Eve was a help meet and equal and as an outsider this is something my DH says the LDS lacks. Women have their spot and arn’t allowed out of it.

I think I cleared it up. It really is something that is painful to me and I’m really sorry for venting in an inappropriate manner. 😳

[Anonymous]

Antiquarian wrote:

I honestly feel that Patriarchy hurts men as well as women. I do understand that LDS is the only Christian group that knows of a Heavenly Mother. I just wish we actually talked about Her insted of hiding behind a tradition of “oh, She’s too important”. Is She more important that Heavenly Father? Can’t we learn of them both? I just wish we had lessons in Church about Her and Her role in our lives.

It might be that the reason we don’t talk about Her so much is that we don’t know anything. This seems likely since She’s not mentioned in the scriptures directly, and I’m not aware of very many statements from revelation on Her nature. Most of what I have read about Her comes from the dubious source Mormon Doctrine. Since I can’t honestly lend much doctrinal creedence to that book, I’m inclined to be highly speculative of the statements regarding Heavenly Mother as well.

Antiquarian wrote:

My DH isn’t LDS and when I’ve told him about the Temple and the wording of this covenant he told me that he believes it is wrong and that God wouldn’t make a spouse submit spiritually to another at all. Eve was a help meet and equal and as an outsider this is something my DH says the LDS lacks. Women have their spot and arn’t allowed out of it.

I think I can agree with this. I don’t think women should have to submit spiritually to their husband (or anyone else) either. There are parts of the temple ceremony I’m definitely not a fan of, and I’m trying to work through a better understanding of it.

[Anonymous]

jmb275 wrote:

There are parts of the temple ceremony I’m definitely not a fan of, and I’m trying to work through a better understanding of it.

Or maybe understand that those that wrote it were influenced by the attitudes of the time.

[Author]

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