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I’ve always felt that our society devalues the devine roll and calling of being a mother. The media teaches us that successful people are folks in the workplace. It tells us that stay-at-home moms are somehow “weak” or, at least not living up to their potential. The priesthood, when properly lived, is simply the power to bless others. There should be no domineering derived from it IMHO. Men can, and have, exercised unrightous dominion and used their priesthood holding as an excuse but I would submit that any man that does, doesn’t have any priesthood power anyway.
I think sometimes we men are given the priesthood because we couldn’t cut it as proper mothers so we need something to do.
I guess what I’m saying is…Only when unrightous dominion is exercised is a woman’s role in Mormonism anything less than a man’s.
My opinion only…
I don’t think I have ever been diminished by the church HQ…..but I do feel that I have been diminished by men in the church, and women too. Sometimes I think that is because of “traditions of our fathers which are not correct” if I may steal the phrase from the BofM. I too see that men have evolved in terms of roles and division of labor. I also feel a gratitude for the inherent differences between man and woman, even as sometimes my understanding of them is limited. Sometimes I don’t know all the time if I see the churches practices/traditions as falling into the “traditions of our fathers….” catagory or that of the proclamation on the family. Perhaps we are evolving. Hopefully we are headed in the direction Christ was trying to establish with regards to women. I suppose it starts by how I see myself as a woman and what I believe about how God sees and values me. I think sometimes life tends to beat that worth out of you. I believe stongly that we should recognize that the term “the incorrect traditions of their fathers” applies, in some way, to some extent, to all. As I’ve said elsewhere, that concept is embedded into the core of the allegory of the olive tree in Jacob 5 – and it’s one of the reasons I love that chapter so much. Rix wrote:jmb275 wrote:There are parts of the temple ceremony I’m definitely not a fan of, and I’m trying to work through a better understanding of it.
Or maybe understand that those that wrote it were influenced by the attitudes of the time.
This is really my view also. There have been many changes made to the wording and ceremony already based on feedback, and there will certainly be more. Simply put, the ceremony is not pure doctrine. It’s hard to find something that is – everything is tainted by human interpretation and transient cultural norms.
hawkgrrrl wrote:Rix wrote:jmb275 wrote:There are parts of the temple ceremony I’m definitely not a fan of, and I’m trying to work through a better understanding of it.
Or maybe understand that those that wrote it were influenced by the attitudes of the time.
This is really my view also. There have been many changes made to the wording and ceremony already based on feedback, and there will certainly be more. Simply put, the ceremony is not pure doctrine. It’s hard to find something that is – everything is tainted by human interpretation and transient cultural norms.
The more I noodle over this the more I think that this might be absolutely ok. If one is indeed taught by the Spirit…and perhaps even expanded by the Spirit, I wonder if that process makes room for all of it. But even in saying this, you can put me in the group of having temple concerns and not quite understanding things like I would like to. I am applying my faith to that and resting on the good spiritual feelings I get by the whole temple experience and hoping that my concerns with be ironed out over time as faith opens doors of understanding.
Poppyseed wrote:
The more I noodle over this the more I think that this might be absolutely ok. If one is indeed taught by the Spirit…and perhaps even expanded by the Spirit, I wonder if that process makes room for all of it.I love this! I think it is a beautiful thing for temple goers to sit in the quiet, peaceful environment of the temple, pondering things of the spirit, opening their hearts to God’s love….does it really matter what is being said?!
Antiquarian wrote:I think I cleared it up. It really is something that is painful to me and I’m really sorry for venting in an inappropriate manner.
😳
I’m glad you bring it up to discuss it. I appreciate you and poppyseed and Hawk openly expressing how you think about it, it is a great thing for me to read those posts. As a male, I have a hard time knowing how to respond. Even with great intentions, I can’t pretent to understand your experiences or my wife’s. But I try based on how it is explained to me.I know I act in my home based on the responsibilities I feel I’m accountable for. I lead without wanting to dominate my wife, but what I’ve been taught, but being imperfect, know I don’t keep it balanced right all the time. The goal is for me and my wife to be equal and be one…completely one…the practice is flawed, because I’m flawed. My wife puts up with it.
I have never found an adequate reasoning why my wife covenants with me instead of God for some things, or why we know nothing about Heavenly Mother, or why it isn’t even mentioned in the scriptures. I tend to lean towards the explanation given by Rix, but it doesn’t fully satisfy me. Ultimately, JMB is right, we just don’t know which leaves us with the responsibility to treat each other correctly even when we don’t know some things.
Everytime I see the title of this thread it makes me think “women rock!” LOL Men and women are AWESOME! Some day we will see ourselves as we are seen. And we will see eachother as God does.
I think that my favorite interpretation of the temple ceremony is this. Each of us are BOTH Adam and Eve. Adam represents our spirit and Eve the flesh. We are both flesh and spirit and the flesh should be subject to the spirit. But, they are also one-something that has been forgotten.
This is so interesting to me because then it is no longer about gender. It is about me and my own journey to become unified.
I have so many more thoughts, but don’t want to derail the thread.
Heavenly Mother is known through personal revelation. That is exactly how we know the Father, too. In the early restored church these types of revelations were shared. The current church discourages the sharing of these kinds of revelations. But that does not mean we are unable to pursue them ourselves. If you want to know God the Mother, pray and meditate for her to be revealed to you.
The Divine Feminine is missing from our current mythology/worship. There is an unbalance. It seems to have started around the time women were burned as witches for their feminine gifts of the spirit and continues in many ways today. By denying the feminine or matriarchy and only focusing on the masculine and patriarchy we have caused a great imbalance. You can see the effects of it in our society. The men need this acknowledgment of the feminine just as much as the women do. Balance is a good, healthy thing. Both need to be empowered.
just me wrote:The Divine Feminine is missing from our current mythology/worship. There is an unbalance. It seems to have started around the time women were burned as witches for their feminine gifts of the spirit and continues in many ways today. By denying the feminine or matriarchy and only focusing on the masculine and patriarchy we have caused a great imbalance. You can see the effects of it in our society. The men need this acknowledgment of the feminine just as much as the women do. Balance is a good, healthy thing. Both need to be empowered.
That is so powerful, just me!
What seems ironic, is that it feels like the OT is what creates the inequality and yet it is in the OT that prophetesses exist. Any ideas of the Judeo-christian origin of these inequalities?
There are aboriginal communities in random parts of the world that are matriarchal and worship the feminine as much or more than the masculine in their mythological belief systems. I think the western world has entrenched the inequality, mostly through religion. Although Eastern cultures have various belief systems around the idea of “honor”, or caste, which tends to reveal itself as misogynistic, from what little I know about it.
I have always loved women such as Joan of Arch who was burned at the stake, claiming as she did that she heard the voice of God. There is just something about the spirit of women who have died in flames, a spirit liberated completely from mortality. The first women executed in the U.S., Mary Dryer, died fighting for religious freedom. They tried to cover her face with a veil as she hung, but she refused. Those that saw her die said that she had a faint smile on her face as her delicate neck snapped. Minutes later, a gentle wind blew her skirt as she hung. Her skirt, blowing in the wind, became the first flag of freedom in the New World and that is why a flag blowing in the wind is associated with freedom.
The gentle wind has always been a sign of the Spirit for me. It testifies to me.
Lastly, I know that my Lord and Savior died for me, but I do like to remember the many women who died for me as well. There were the women who fought along side their husbands in the Revolutionary war. One sister, slight of frame jumped off of her horse and hid in a hollow log until night. Realizing that her horse had been stolen, she crept in to the enemy camp and stole her horse back. This young girl had been an orphan in England and had been sold as an indentured servant to the U.S.
The Spirit of the Lord has been with women since the dawn of time. The BOM tell of our “Mariner Mothers” who sailed across the ocean. Very few women had the courage and strength to sail in the ancient days. There were no luxury liners or cruise ships. Living at sea was the most challenging and difficult life any women could know, yet these ancient women populated the isles of the sea.
Quote:Heavenly Mother is known through personal revelation. That is exactly how we know the Father, too. In the early restored church these types of revelations were shared. The current church discourages the sharing of these kinds of revelations. But that does not mean we are unable to pursue them ourselves. If you want to know God the Mother, pray and meditate for her to be revealed to you.
While I appreciate the sentiment here, the last bit falls into something that is not taught. Rather we are taught not to pray to HM or Jesus even, but to the Father. There is something inside of me that feels this is important but don’t ask me to expound on that because I can’t say I really know why. And I must say at times it doesn’t make sense. If this human family is represenative of our heavenly family and if the hymn “Oh my Father” is correct, then having a HM makes perfect sense. But just as the man is nothing without the woman, how does God rule and parent and lead children without His wife? I don’t think it ever really occured to me to talk to HM about a problem. I feel rather removed from her like a child who lost a mother at birth….knows she was there but not now and there is no pain really…… Make sense? But being a girl kind, why wouldn’t I long for her influence? I am afraid I don’t know what is right here as the explanations from the church and the explanations from human ideas don’t satisfy my soul.
Something else that has bothered me is when some talk of more than one HM and that we all perhaps have a different one.
Quote:In the early restored church these types of revelations were shared. The current church discourages the sharing of these kinds of revelations.
Just Me, I wondered if you might direct me to exactly what you meant with this reference on both counts. I would like to see where praying to HM happened or personal experiences with her. And then I would like to see where the sharing of such is officially discouraged. The only “discourgement”, if you want to call it that, I ever seen is with regards to personal revelation (dreams, visitations, information) is that these experiences are sacred and should not be shared with the general public unless moved by the HG to do so. And that sharing something without the permission of God may cost one the trust of God with regards to these mysteries.
Sorry…doing two posts here. I have wondered a lot about the patriarchal order of the OT and then the appearance of a prophetess. I was watching the history channel a few months back on some writings that were found somewhere near Israel….I think it was Egypt (forgive my memory), but they seemed to be Bible like “books” like the book of Thomas and others. They seemed to indicate that Mary Magdelene could have been a prophetess and that she seemed to have taught peter and the 12. There also seemed to be some reference to another female that was referred to as a decon who delivered messages to various church leaders. Now…it has been a while since I have seen the show, but I found it all very interesting. And I think about how Christ viewed women, and then how JS and the early sisters seem to differ from our traditions today and couple that with the women’s roles in the temple, and it makes me wonder if we perhaps aren’t living with every single part of the gospel restored. I am off the deep end here?
I also wonder about the Restoration. If everything that was restored thru JS was there at the time of Christ, does this apply to the RS? Was there a women’s organization or some type that might mirror what we have today? Or is the RS a truly progressive original?
Quote:And I think about how Christ viewed women, and then how JS and the early sisters seem to differ from our traditions today and couple that with the women’s roles in the temple, and it makes me wonder if we perhaps aren’t living with every single part of the gospel restored. I am off the deep end here?
Careful, Poppyseed….you’re thinking like one of those fundamentalists.I would offer as food-for-thought that one thing that may have contributed to a percieved loss of respect for women in the mainstream Church is the cessation of the second endowment. In fact, I have known Church members who aren’t even aware that the second annointing was ever practiced or is necessary.
The first endowment only seals us up “to become” king/queens…priests/priestesses. The second endowment seals us “AS” kings/queens…priests and priestesses. Even though we haven’t been granted a kingdom yet, we (both man and woman) have our calling and election made sure and are both very much priesthood holders. I would submit that this led to greater respect for women at the beginning of the restoration.
Why the importance of that ordinance is being neglected for now, I’m not exactly sure.
Fundamentalist opinion only…
Mileage will vary…
Wow. This turned out really long. 😳 😆 I’ve been doing lots of searching and pondering on this topic.Poppyseed, I was speaking of the revelations Joseph and others received in regards to a Heavenly Mother and shared openly with members of the church. There are records of things being said about Her. Not her being prayed to. I am unaware of anyone at anytime talking about praying to a HM. Eliza R. Snow said that Joseph taught her about a Heavenly Mother and she wrote it in her hymn which has been called “inspired” by GBH. There were other earlies who spoke of God being a Mother and Father. I think there are references in Sisters in Spirit. Who knows what else would have been revealed to Joseph had he lived longer. Like you, I feel removed from HM. I am very comfortable with HF, but even more comfortable with a Father/Mother team concept.
Ironically, Joseph did pray to Jehovah and the D&C is full of the Lord (Christ) talking about hearing the prayers that were prayed to him. So, I agree that the modern church has made a firm line of us praying to God the Father, but it was not so in the early church. If you would like to see an example where it is clear Joseph is praying to Jehovah see the dedicatory prayer for the Kirtland Temple D&C 109. The first edition of the BoM also did not have as much distiction between the Father and the Son as our current edition. For example: 1 Nephi 13:40 “…that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father…” used to say “that the Lamb of God is the Eternal Father…” Anyway, that is a whole ‘nother topic I find extremely fascinating.
I was suggesting that people can pray to the Father to have the Mother revealed to them. Ask and you shall receive. IOW, we are commanded to seek and promised to be given knowledge-even hidden treasures of knowledge. If one believes those scriptures to be true there is nothing wrong or sinful in seeking out a spiritual relationship with our Heavenly Mother. To me, even the knowledge that we have a HM is a revelation. My main point is, the reason we don’t know much (or anything) about her is that we haven’t asked.
Today we are most definately discouraged from sharing personal impressions or revelations about HM. People who talk too much about her are talked to by PH leaders. Paul Toscano believes that a class his wife taught in which a comment was made about Heavenly Mother was what precipitated his excommunication-she was later ex’d as well. That is what I was refering to with my comment about it being discouraged. Of course, we are also discouraged from teaching anything outside “the manual” so to be fair you could get pulled in to the bishops office for bringing in anything other than official church doctrine. Anyhoo, we can refer to her, we just have to tread much more carefully than when speaking of the Father and Son.
Poppyseed, you are on the right track wondering about women and the priesthood in ancient history. Certainly, Mary Magdalene was the first apostle-an apostle being a witness of Christ and his resurrection. Deborah was a “judge in Isreal.” That sounds like a priesthood role to me. Sarah was given the promise to be a mother of nations and that the covenant would be with her seed. Why? It has been specualted that she was also an heir to the priesthood. In the NT we find female names of leaders in the church (deacons, apostles).
There is a scripture about the highest PH being “without father or mother.” Does that infer a lower matriarchal priesthood just like the lower patriarchal priesthood? Then, the highest being available to all?
As far as the Relief Society, Joseph said he would make them a “kingdom of priests” and he “turned the key to them.” Well, that all sounds very much like priesthood to me. It appears that he invisioned it as going hand in hand with the ordinances of the temple. In the temple there is an ordinance administered by women to women. By what power and authority do they administer that ordinance?
Why did Brigham Young write in his journal that Emma Smith was the first woman to receive the Melc. Priesthood?
There are so many bread crumbs along the trail that one could naturally come to the conclusion that women are not excluded from the priesthood. However, we all read the scriptures and early church history accounts with a bias. I know I never noticed any of this stuff before with my patriarchal bias.
Thank you , Just me. I appreciate your time and attention to my questions. I have a lot to think about.
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