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I know a VERY orthodox woman who prays to HF and, sometimes, in the middle says, essentially: Quote:Excuse me. I’m going to talk with mother for a few minutes.
Please don’t get me wrong.
I’m NOT advocating that everyone (or even anyone) do this. I never do; my wife wouldn’t dream of it; I only know one person directly who does.My point is that this woman is absolutely an orthodox, TBM member in EVERY imaginable way – and she ALWAYS prays to Heavenly Father. She just talks with Heavenly Mother for a few minutes occasionally in the middle of a prayer here and there.
There really are ways to “follow the rules” while being unique.
I also think there can be a difference between worshipping and praying. Out of respect, we should not put anything before our worship and devotion to Heavenly Father, including worship of Jesus Christ, because all that Christ did was to glorify the Father.
On the other hand, “talking to” mother in your prayers seems ok. I also talk to my earthly dad (who is no longer on earth) sometimes because I believe he may be able to hear me at times.
Heber13 wrote:I also think there can be a difference between worshipping and praying.
Out of respect, we should not put anything before our worship and devotion to Heavenly Father, including worship of Jesus Christ, because all that Christ did was to glorify the Father.
On the other hand, “talking to” mother in your prayers seems ok. I also talk to my earthly dad (who is no longer on earth) sometimes because I believe he may be able to hear me at times.
I know there are times when I talk to Jesus in my prayer thoughts. I know I have said “Where the heck are you?”
To be honest, poppyseed, I’m the same way. I just think it has to do with knowing more about Jesus than I do about my Heavenly Mother. I usually don’t give it much thought, but maybe I should. In the spirit of Mother’s Day, I want to bring this subject back. It has been 14 years since the last post. There are a lot of interesting points made.
For example, Old-Timer said:
Quote:I know a VERY orthodox woman who prays to HF and, sometimes, in the middle says, essentially:
Excuse me. I’m going to talk with mother for a few minutes.
Please don’t get me wrong. I’m NOT advocating that everyone (or even anyone) do this. I never do; my wife wouldn’t dream of it; I only know one person directly who does.
My point is that this woman is absolutely an orthodox, TBM member in EVERY imaginable way – and she ALWAYS prays to Heavenly Father. She just talks with Heavenly Mother for a few minutes occasionally in the middle of a prayer here and there.
There really are ways to “follow the rules” while being unique.
The recent talk by general RS president Camille Johnson seemed to stir things up a bit for women as she promoted a traditional motherhood role yet spent decades working as a corporate attorney. Apparently, based on what I read, she did not respond to questions regarding her early decision to go against the counsel of then church leaders, including the prophet, who at the time she would have been getting her education and getting into law school were telling women to stay home and raise children. That she is now lauded and given what is the highest calling a women in the church can ever receive, feels like a slap in the face to women of her generation who chose to follow the prophet and neglect their dreams of a career and higher education. Great for Camille Johnson that she followed her path. This should be an example for everyone to follow their own path. Go against what you’re being told to do if it doesn’t fit with what you feel and believe is best for you. The church might eventually catch up. They certainly won’t acknowledge that the narrative changed or apologize for limiting women’s opportunities.
Cnsl1 wrote:
The recent talk by general RS president Camille Johnson seemed to stir things up a bit for women as she promoted a traditional motherhood role yet spent decades working as a corporate attorney. Apparently, based on what I read, she did not respond to questions regarding her early decision to go against the counsel of then church leaders, including the prophet, who at the time she would have been getting her education and getting into law school were telling women to stay home and raise children. That she is now lauded and given what is the highest calling a women in the church can ever receive, feels like a slap in the face to women of her generation who chose to follow the prophet and neglect their dreams of a career and higher education.
This is absolutely true and complicated….
It was in part President Johnson – and also about where we center our personal identity as women (in how we spend our time) in part in that old fight about “stay at home” vs “working mother”. In a sense, she got serious validation for choosing a career, for the amount of lucky breaks she got in terms of childcare, health, spousal support, etc. especially since the messaging from that time period was “stay at home, family first”.
But honestly, the fact that this talk came out on the heels of the great “garment-wearing debate” sent huge waves of mixed messages…“Go make your own choices and follow your own compass – but not when it comes to wearing garments”.
“We trust you to make life-impacting choices for your families – but we still claim administration authority to tell you when to wear specific clothing instead of using your best judgement. We are specifically retracting your best judgement as a woman because you wear too many yoga pants.”
Cnsl1 wrote:
Great for Camille Johnson that she followed her path. This should be an example for everyone to follow their own path. Go against what you’re being told to do if it doesn’t fit with what you feel and believe is best for you. The church might eventually catch up. They certainly won’t acknowledge that the narrative changed or apologize for limiting women’s opportunities.
My husband and I are listening to Dr. Leonard Sax’s book,
Why Gender Matters. It is about key biologically different ways that boys/men and girls/women are different. For example, women have more sensitive hearing and eyesight due to cells in those organs (and those cells are more sensitive to external simulation/pick up on different environmental cues). This can play out in wondering if a boy has ADHD because they aren’t “paying attention to their quiet-voiced teacher” when they are just not placed at a range where they can actually hear the teacher and pay attention. This can play out in numerous conversations where a teenager girl is convinced that their dad “is yelling at them” when the father is just speaking loudly/animatedly about a subject and isn’t necessarily “yelling at their teenager”. There is a chapter on how “boys fight” and how “girls fight”. Boys in general aggressively duke it out, establish a pecking order, and then move on. Girls fight socially (usually behind the scenes), and if it comes out as a verbal fight or a physical fight – the “point of no return” is reached and they will not be able to be friends again.
On some levels, it feels like the church leaders are acting aggressively to “establish a legitimate pecking order” and get the confrontation over with them calling the shots – being entirely tone-deaf that as they keep making that decision to have that level of disconnect, they are just proving to women everywhere that “the conversation is over – and we can never be friends” – just making it easier to walk away from the church.
It’s not a “stop being selfish” issue the way that it is being presented by the male leadership. What it tends to become is a “trust” issue. Women are becoming disillusioned that they can trust the church administration to remain connected to women’s interests and American culture (beyond American, but that’s what I know) has evolved so that women have more autonomy – legally they can sue for “no fault” divorces, they can sign financial documents without a male co-signer, and their right for body autonomy is at least a point on the table. So it’s going to look like a “very nice conversation” up until “the talking is over” and then the “being in relation to/being connected to the church” is over.
The church is using “guy rules in a fight” and women are using “girls rules in a fight” – which means sooner or later the women are likely to walk away when they have decided the conversation is over – and it is really truly over (baring life-changing circumstances and reconnection).
Excellent post, Amy. Thomas S. Monson “Behold Thy Mother” Oct. 1973 Quote:From that awful night when time stood still, when the earth did quake and great mountains were brought down—yes, through the annals of history, over the centuries of years and beyond the span of time, there echoes his simple yet divine words, “Behold thy mother!”
As we truly listen to that gentle command and with gladness obey its intent, gone forever will be the vast legions of “mother forgotten.” Everywhere present will be “mother remembered,” “mother blessed,” and “mother loved” and, as in the beginning, God will once again survey the workmanship of his own hand and be led to say, “It [is] very good.”
May each of us treasure this truth; one cannot forget mother and remember God. One cannot remember mother and forget God. Why? Because these two sacred persons, God and mother, partners in creation, in love, in sacrifice, in service, are as one.
May we, by our thoughts and our actions, honor God and mother, I pray humbly yet earnestly, in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.
After having skimmed the whole talk, I do not think that (at the time Apostle) Monson was talking about Heavenly Mother. However, if the church ever became more serious about remembering Heavenly Mother then I could see these quotes come out to support the change. We are pretty fond of digging up something out of context and then making the assertion that the new thing is actually a revealed truth that the brethren have either always taught or have been preparing the people to accept for years.
I’m not complaining. I like most of the overall trend of the changes that the church has been making. Whatever they need to do in order to save face in making these changes is ok with me because I know that the alternative is NOT making changes.
I really get a lot out of everyone’s comments. I wish we had a SS class together.
Minyan Man wrote:
I really get a lot out of everyone’s comments.I wish we had a SS class together.
We kinda do – just not in the same belief format/framework or in the same room at the same time:)
Roy wrote:
After having skimmed the whole talk, I do not think that (at the time Apostle) Monson was talking about Heavenly Mother. However, if the church ever became more serious about remembering Heavenly Mother then I could see these quotes come out to support the change.
I confess to finding the entire Heavenly Mother concept utter schmaltzy nonsense. In my admittedly worthless opinion, it is yet another projection of humanity onto deity. We are all adept at doing that because it helps us to relate to the unrelatable.What if the scriptures are correct when they say that Christ is both the father and the son in the context of our Earthly experience? What if, when we pray to the Father, we actually pray to Christ as the Father? Imagine how crazy we would therefore sound if we start including Christ’s wife, who isn’t even part of the Godhead that we know of. May as well get all Catholic and pray to Mary; even more entertaining if it’s just a statue of her.
Carburettor wrote:
Roy wrote:
After having skimmed the whole talk, I do not think that (at the time Apostle) Monson was talking about Heavenly Mother. However, if the church ever became more serious about remembering Heavenly Mother then I could see these quotes come out to support the change.
I confess to finding the entire Heavenly Mother concept utter schmaltzy nonsense. In my admittedly worthless opinion, it is yet another projection of humanity onto deity. We are all adept at doing that because it helps us to relate to the unrelatable.What if the scriptures are correct when they say that Christ is both the father and the son in the context of our Earthly experience? What if, when we pray to the Father, we actually pray to Christ as the Father? Imagine how crazy we would therefore sound if we start including Christ’s wife, who isn’t even part of the Godhead that we know of. May as well get all Catholic and pray to Mary; even more entertaining if it’s just a statue of her.
“Heavenly Mother” is about representation and respect for women’s authority. I suspect that the increase in the “Heavenly Mother” narrative has been about “women’s autonomy” in the culture wars of birth control (1970’s the first time around), ERA (“do we respect women enough to pay them equally”), and a host of other arenas where women’s voices were not listened to with the intent to learn and share authority and decision-making power. I suspect that there is an increased connection to Heavenly Mother because women are being stretched thinner and thinner and need more support and need change. We need that nurturing and empathy as a balm to our souls.
“Heavenly Mother” is about “shared power of creation and decision-making”. As power and decision-making authority are concentrated into fewer and fewer wealthier individuals, the topic of a “divine mother” who comforts us and mediates our fights is comforting.
AmyJ wrote:
“Heavenly Mother” is about representation and respect for women’s authority. I suspect that the increase in the “Heavenly Mother” narrative has been about “women’s autonomy” in the culture wars of birth control (1970’s the first time around), ERA (“do we respect women enough to pay them equally”), and a host of other arenas where women’s voices were not listened to with the intent to learn and share authority and decision-making power. I suspect that there is an increased connection to Heavenly Mother because women are being stretched thinner and thinner and need more support and need change. We need that nurturing and empathy as a balm to our souls.“Heavenly Mother” is about “shared power of creation and decision-making”. As power and decision-making authority are concentrated into fewer and fewer wealthier individuals, the topic of a “divine mother” who comforts us and mediates our fights is comforting.
“Heavenly Mother” is about “…”Is that for you, or for everyone? I am 100% certain there are many Church members who believe in a literal Heavenly Mother figure simply because it fits comfortably into their mortal paradigm.
While I have no qualms about ridding ourselves of many of the tired old trappings of patriarchal society, I’m unconvinced about a literal figure for whom we have nothing but conjecture.
Carburettor wrote:
“Heavenly Mother” is about “…”Is that for you, or for everyone? I am 100% certain there are many Church members who believe in a literal Heavenly Mother figure simply because it fits comfortably into their mortal paradigm.
There is a gender divide about what “Heavenly Mother” means to that individual.
While I was speaking for myself and my point of view, the sentiments I expressed are not unique to me. There are others out there (mostly women) who would express similar sentiments.
The thing is, “Heavenly Mother” doesn’t fit comfortably in our theology/moral paradigm – if She did (and what She represents), then there wouldn’t be so much controversy about it, and it wouldn’t be an “ongoing conversation in the corners” as it were.
Carburettor wrote:
While I have no qualms about ridding ourselves of many of the tired old trappings of patriarchal society, I’m unconvinced about a literal figure for whom we have nothing but conjecture.
I’m with you on that one. Most days, I hope that there is a “God” in the sense of a party or parties who care about me on some level and help me out sometimes. I think the “Divine Gender Assignment and related Performance Measures” is a critical flaw in understanding God. But, if we are going to deal with “God” then “Heavenly Parents” grants me more representation and grounds for reflection then just “Heavenly Father”.
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