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I just found this site today as I was looking for Mormon Stories and was led here. I have been “inactive” for the most part in the internet communities over the past year or so. I’ve just been too busy or otherwise occupied. I’ve participated at NOM for a number of years off and on. I’m one of the relative old-timers over there. I recognize a few of you here from NOM. Ever since my disaffection, almost six years ago, I’ve wondered about long-term participation with the church. On one hand, I see merit. On the other hand I don’t. As this is a site dedicated to staying LDS, I will confine my discussions here to that side of the equation. I have no qualms saying that the determination of whether or not to stay with the church is a very individual issue. For some there is benefit to staying for others, the environment is too toxic. I cannot enumerate what the individual characteristics or circumstances are that would make it more probable that one could find long-term happiness either inside or outside the church. I had noted on John Hamer’s Facebook description in regards to religion, he says, “Secular Mormon.” Perhaps that describes me to an extent. I consider myself agnostic. I place my main modes of thinking in the context of the Enlightenment, with a utilitarian, rationalist, evidentialist bent. I am not enamoured with magical thinking. I agree with the statement of Artemus Ward, who said, ” It ain’t so much the things we don’t know that get us into trouble. It’s the things we know that just ain’t so.” As an agnostic, I have serious doubt about God speaking to anyone, or informing anyone of anything. I think that when people believe that the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit is communicating with them, what is really happening is an emotional or some sort of biochemical reaction. Confirmation bias is strong among those who think religious experiences either confirm or disconfirm the truth or falsity of any claim or course of action. I say these things not be be negative, but to lay out my current frame of reference, as I think it is important to understand the potential environment and course of action that may be most fitting in the long-term for me. I don’t say these things to try to argue that anyone here should adopt my frame of reference or worldview.
I have found some benefit from the community which is often so strong inside the LDS world. I appreciate that. I appreciate that the community joins together and helps its members in need. I appreciate belonging somewhere. I have a hard time thinking that belonging to the Elks club or the local Rotary club would have the same type of meaning to me, but I could be wrong. I am proud of my Mormon heritage and have no problem telling people that I am Mormon. Neither do I have a problems telling them that I am an unorthodox Mormon. I also like Hamer’s notion of being a secular Mormon. I look down the path and see my children marrying and having children. I see the Mormon rituals and rites of passage of child blessings, baptism, primary graduation, priesthood advancement, missions, temple ceremonies (not so sure about this one), marriage, etc. as all having a cultural, mythological framework and benefit.
Are there good reasons for me to stay actively engaged in the church, or am I too far gone to be “redeemed?”
Welcome GD Teacher! Glad you found us. GDTeacher wrote:
Are there good reasons for me to stay actively engaged in the church, or am I too far gone to be “redeemed?”Do you want there to be a reason to stay engaged?
I agree with much of what you say, and can relate to your frame of reference. The logical side of me doesn’t see God as a tinkerer in the universe, choosing to spare some people from certain calamities while ignoring the pleas of others. I relate to your general view of how most religionists view spiritual experiences, I feel l understand their perspectives but I don’t see things exactly in the same way that they do. To me God is love, God is goodness . . . also truth and life. I don’t worry so much about the ‘unknowable’ aspects of a supreme being, or even if we falsely attribute other forces or sources (of good & love for example) to a ‘being’. I enjoy the same things you mention about church. A religious or spiritual experience to me is witnessing the power of love, or the strength of a common desire for good – a cause to unite. To me this entire process (in and out of church association) is a meaningful progression, a way to ‘become’ better personally. I think I hold that desire in common with the greater church body, and I cherish that common goal.
I look forward to more of your thoughts.
Welcome. I’ve known too many people who appeared to be “farther gone” than you appear to be 
Orson wrote:Do you want there to be a reason to stay engaged?
Sometimes I do and sometimes I don’t. Sometimes I see participating over the long term, becoming the elderly man sitting on the back row. Other times I see myself practicing a more personal form of “spirituality” at home. I’m certainly on the fence, wondering what would be the best course of action for me. I am open to discovery and discussion.
Quote:A religious or spiritual experience to me is witnessing the power of love, or the strength of a common desire for good – a cause to unite. To me this entire process (in and out of church association) is a meaningful progression, a way to ‘become’ better personally. I think I hold that desire in common with the greater church body, and I cherish that common goal.
This reminds me to a degree of the Jonathan Haidt’s writings on “elevation.” The power of love, acts of compassion, helping each other, common good, are all spiritually powerful to me.
Old-Timer wrote:Welcome. I’ve known too many people who appeared to be “farther gone” than you appear to be
Thanks for the welcome. I hope my participation here will help me to clarify my future path.
GDTeacher, Isn’t that the great question? Can we can or can we can’t? At least we can explore the
canpart together here. Ray,
I love your perspective, and you probably don’t intend this, but sometimes your messages come across as though you desire to assist others to
reclaimsomething lost. The problem with coming across that way is it is not welcoming or supportive of the positive elements of the journey that brings people here. There may be some who feel 100% distraught and lost and angry, but many others arrive here with a large sense of progress and discovery. Language that hints at a possible regression can be alienating. km, I don’t believe anyone can “go back” – and I think anything that hints at “regression” is destructive. “Returning” to or “recreating”/”reclaiming” a level of prior participation, imo, is very, very different than “going back” – so I apologize if that message somehow came through my words. I would never go back(wards) in my own journey, but I do believe in being able to participate more fully in the Church with a different perspective than what drove past participation (reclaiming activity while not giving up new found insight and spiritual growth, if you will). In other words, I think “going back to church” doesn’t have to mean regression; it simply can mean finding an advanced place of peace from which activity can be a positive thing. Also, GD Teacher, my “Personal Focus” post here essentially is about pursuing individual, personal spirituality outside of “church”. That is a critical part of my own efforts, and I recommend the general attempt highly. I don’t think the pursuit of personal spirituality and institutional activity are mutually exclusive – or, perhaps I should say, I believe the pursuit of the former can make the latter possible for many who otherwise would struggle. I believe personal spiritual growth is every bit as important as institutional activity, and although many can gain the first as a result of the second, many others need the personal spirituality to handle the institutional activity.
If I were limited to one piece of advice only, it probably would be to focus on identifying the characteristics of godliness and working to internalize them. Everything else flows from becoming more like Jesus, and I believe that has to be an effort undertaken independent of church activity to be accomplished as fully as possible.
GDTeacher wrote:Orson wrote:A religious or spiritual experience to me is witnessing the power of love, or the strength of a common desire for good – a cause to unite. To me this entire process (in and out of church association) is a meaningful progression, a way to ‘become’ better personally. I think I hold that desire in common with the greater church body, and I cherish that common goal.
This reminds me to a degree of the Jonathan Haidt’s writings on “elevation.” The power of love, acts of compassion, helping each other, common good, are all spiritually powerful to me.
I really dig Jonathan Haidt. The Happiness Hypothesis was a wonderful book.
I love everything that Orson has ever said, ever.
I agree. I think this whole process is the way wisdom is born. Hard earned wisdom. And this wisdom makes us more Christian.
Old-Timer wrote:If I were limited to one piece of advice only, it probably would be to focus on identifying the characteristics of godliness and working to internalize them. Everything else flows from becoming more like Jesus, and I believe that has to be an effort undertaken independent of church activity to be accomplished as fully as possible.
This is gold. Gold, Ray.
Hi GDTeacher, Welcome to StayLDS. This is a place to hang out and discuss staying in the Church. So if you want to be here, you are more than welcome. Although your perspective, which seems much more of a Materialsim approach, is radically different than my own, I can’t fault a successful path the produces peace and enjoyment of the LDS faith tradition. You seem to experience some of that.
I would love to hear more from you. My hope is to gather effective strategies for reconciling with and finding peace within the Church. Some people will certainly connect with your path.
I heard a guy speaking about the LDS social structure and programs once. He seemed pretty open minded. One comment in particular that stuck in my minds was this — the programs don’t seem to work the same without the theology. Your comments about the Rotary Club made me think of that. Perhaps that is the reason to stay and enjoy the Church. Community association is part of the rich human experience. The LDS Church can be a wonderful community. I particularly enjoy the ward I am in right now. The people are so real. They really are great examples to me. Even if I am no longer orthodox in my own practices, I really enjoy the community — the opportunity to serve others and be served by others.
It’s nice to see you here, GDTeacher. Your perspective is similar to mine right now. I ask myself if there is a reason for me to reconnect with the teachings, and not just the church organization. If I do, will I lose the insights I have gained by stepping away? I don’t have any answers yet. I hope you will stick around and help us explore these questions. Ray, I like your idea of exploring individual spirituality separately from institutional activity. I’ll have to consider that further.
Jordan Turner wrote:I love everything that Orson has ever said, ever.
(Blushing) This is probably because I see Jordan as a Jedi master.
Hi GD Teacher — love seeing you all around the web. Where do you live? We should get together IRL sometime we’re ever in the same locale. I think you have a great perspective on the Mormon experience and I’ve long been an advocate of having secular Mormons the same way a person can be a secular Jew.
I think the problem for cultural or secular Mormonism is the authoritarian structure of the LDS Church itself. The church welcomes neither dissent nor free-thinking; it’s a top-down organization that values obedience to leaders and conformity to practices above all. Therefore, while I advocate staying Mormon, I don’t favor staying LDS.
John Hamer wrote:I think the problem for cultural or secular Mormonism is the authoritarian structure of the LDS Church itself. The church welcomes neither dissent nor free-thinking; it’s a top-down organization that values obedience to leaders and conformity to practices above all. Therefore, while I advocate staying Mormon, I don’t favor staying LDS.
No question that it’s a long row to pick to hoe. But the core assumption of this forum is that we are supporting each other in choosing it or entertaining that possibility. Think of it as a grand experiment.
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