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Now that this has passed, and you look back and reflect on it….what do you mostly think? Were the leaders more reasonable than you thought they would be, or was this just a huge headache that pushes you further out? Heber13 wrote:
Now that this has passed, and you look back and reflect on it….what do you mostly think? Were the leaders more reasonable than you thought they would be, or was this just a huge headache that pushes you further out?
It’s a good question, Heber, and I’m torn. I think the leaders were operating from their binary view of the world and the Church. To me, that doesn’t excuse their behavior but it does explain it and help me understand and also navigate their behavior and expected responses in the future.
As far as the church, I just don’t know. Right now I am ok supporting my wife but I don’t enjoy being a fringe member. It is not personally satisfying to me. I hope the church changes but I’m not holding my breath – any meaningful change needs to come from the top down and I don’t know that I’m patient enough to wait for it. Meanwhile there are a few really important issues to me (i.e., gay marriage, women equality, etc) that I feel so strongly about that make it even harder.
So for now I have found this little space where I can operate – participate in ordinances, etc. But there is a deep spiritual pit in my soul that I do not believe the church is able to fill for me at this point in my life. Does that mean I will stop attending altogether? Probably not, but I do see myself disengaging more and more as time goes on. I’m glad I have this community, but my Sunday church experience is not meaningful to me other than a way to show love to my wife.
DoubtingTom wrote:
So for now I have found this little space where I can operate – participate in ordinances, etc. But there is a deep spiritual pit in my soul that I do not believe the church is able to fill for me at this point in my life.
Very good and thoughtful answer.
Maybe that spiritual fulfillment going forward is something you have to find somewhere in your life. I feel that way sometimes. Instead of thinking church is the be-all-end-all and I go on Sunday for the purest source of truth and fulfillment….instead I sometimes feel that it is just one thing in my life, and that is all it is. Fulfillment comes from many things outside of it, and I go seek them, and fit church in and around my journey to find what I feel I need to develop as a person and feel fulfilled.
It can feel like a lonely journey. But…what else do you do if you can’t find it all on Sunday?
I just like how you are being honest with yourself and where you are at. Thanks for sharing. I think, perhaps, many of us are in a similar spot where we can operate and keep seeking enlightenment elsewhere to enhance it, without throwing out the baby with the bathwater because families are still sealed to the church experience.
Heber13 wrote:
Maybe that spiritual fulfillment going forward is something you have to find somewhere in your life. I feel that way sometimes. Instead of thinking church is the be-all-end-all and I go on Sunday for the purest source of truth and fulfillment….instead I sometimes feel that it is just one thing in my life, and that is all it is. Fulfillment comes from many things outside of it, and I go seek them, and fit church in and around my journey to find what I feel I need to develop as a person and feel fulfilled.This above ^^^^^^^^^^^^.
This above was my coping mechanism. My life is FULL now. Really full!!! While I felt lost there for a while, I learned to fill my life up with other things. I’m at the point where I dont’ really care if I’m a marginal character at church — people seem to accept me that way. And when they don’t consider me for callings I used to be considered for at one time, when I see my friends progressing into Bprics, Bishop callings, SP, HC, it doesn’t bother me.
It’s kind of like this — there is a table spread and you would dine there regularly. But the food started tasting “off” and you went looking for other places to dine. You still go back to the original table to enjoy the food you still like (it’s not ALL bad) and to enjoy the company of old friends. But it’s on your terms, when you want it. Meanwhile, you realize there’s a ton of other food out there — Mexican, Chinese, Italian — that you never experienced. And you have regular friends there too. The variety in life is better than ever,…..and your eyes are opened…
So, I think there needs to be time to grieve on the loss of the potency of the original community, with a search for new communities. I have a community of musicians I have formed that are among my best friends now. I have a community of friends in the wider local town I live and we work together on non-church projects.
So, I would consider asking yourself these questions.
1. What are my passions for serving humanity? Where is there suffering I am passionate about eradicating? (hunger, cruelty to animals, people with a specific disease etectera…). What kinds of humanitarian projects make me excited?
2. What organizations are trying to alleviateg such suffering?
3. What strengths and talents do I have? How can I use them in a way that helps serve the target group these organizations serve?
If your experience is like mine, you will feel like an “investigator” for a while until the people in the organization get to know you as a regular. You may bounce off a couple organizations due to bad leadership, or maybe not so fulfilling experiences — and then you realize it’s the same in the LDS church. You just need to keep trying until you “land” in an organization where you are a good fit.
Now, when at church, I hear all the churchimonies about how great the church is — the be all, end all — but realize that the people there are being myopic and haven’t broaded their minds yet. I actually sit there thinking how the church COMPETES for my service hours. There is a lot I can accomplish given my age and experience in life now, I go where I have the most fulfillment.
And then, after accepting myself, and new relationship with the church, start seeing ways I can contribute that are very positive in the church. It’s like, after you stop needing acceptance from the church, find your life is full with it only marginalized in your life, you are gradually free to contribute in passionate ways on your own terms. And THAT becomes fulfilling. I have an assignment now that has me pretty engaged, just like any fully active member. Mission accomplished. I don’t hold a TR, but that doesn’t seem important any more, now that I am comfortable in my own skin.
Anyway, just my own path — it’s about repopulating the room with new furniture after you move out the old stuff that’s worn out (the church stuff). You have a few favorites abut redecorate, and like the new style better, while retaining the good in the old furniture.
SilentDawning wrote:
when they don’t consider me for callings I used to be considered for at one time, when I see my friends progressing into Bprics, Bishop callings, SP, HC, it doesn’t bother me.
It’s nice they have someone to do those things, and I’m sure they find fulfillment from it for themselves and get support from their families that helps their families grow closer…so it is all good. It makes it easier to sit in the back row and do my duty as whatever they call me to, and let others have the responsibility to do things in church they think are important to them. We all take the sacrament the same way. They others stuff…happy to let others spend time on it.
But there are times I have to have the discussions in bishop’s offices about what I believe and how willing I am to sacrifice, and those have to be navigated carefully so I can stay involved with my kids and family on the rituals and traditions that are special to my family. I do just enough to get what I find as fulfillment out of church, and look for the rest outside of church.
Heber13 wrote:
It’s nice they have someone to do those things, and I’m sure they find fulfillment from it for themselves and get support from their families that helps their families grow closer…so it is all good. It makes it easier to sit in the back row and do my duty as whatever they call me to, and let others have the responsibility to do things in church they think are important to them. We all take the sacrament the same way. They others stuff…happy to let others spend time on it. I don’t consider it my duty to do whatever they call me to do, however. I have to say “no” a lot so I can maximize my personal joy and peace with the church. I am also training them somewhat when they are open, about how to get the most from people through alignment of personal talent, goals and passion with organizational needs. We are too fixated on the organizational needs to the point we often forget the personal needs. So you end up with people serving halfheartedly in many cases, because they are simply not engaged with the task they’ve been told to do.
Quote:B
ut there are times I have to have the discussions in bishop’s offices about what I believe and how willing I am to sacrifice, and those have to be navigated carefully so I can stay involved with my kids and family on the rituals and traditions that are special to my family. I do just enough to get what I find as fulfillment out of church, and look for the rest outside of church.
Aye, there’s the rub (put on your best pirate voice for that one). Eventually you run into new leaders who see you on various high profile, apparently high potential lists like “endowed members without TR’s”, High Priests or simply active at church but not deeply engaged. They want to activate you, or sometimes, simply get work out of you to fulfil the needs of the Ward. Those are tough conversations.
Good responses include — being tired, heavily involved with other commitments out of necessity (like I was going to school recently). Any non-doubt or non-negative-toward-the-church reason you can come out with. When they ask about a TR, indicate, “I’d like to leave myself open to do that eventually,but right now, I don’t feel passionate about it”. I once commented to a Bishop that church commitment can ebb and flow throughout one’s life. The last Bishop I had one of these conversations with didn’t know that his first counselor was severely inactive and almost antagonistic when I was HPGL. Now this man is full-on in the church. He also didn’t seem to know that his now RS President was deeply inactive when I home taught her over a period of 3 or 4 years as HPGL. Now she’s a pillar in the Ward. So I try to help them see that the person they see now (me) is not likely the person they will see in the future — provided I’m allowed to occupy my church space the way I consider best for the time being. And I’m not the guy I was in the past either. People need time to evolve and re-evolve and transform.
Vague, hopeful, not antagonistic or negative, but supportive as much as you feel you can be supportive. And just as importantly — assertive!
As we saw from Doubting Tom, you simply cannot share doubts or church angst or it has strong potential to come back and bite you.
SilentDawning wrote:
So you end up with people serving halfheartedly in many cases, because they are simply not engaged with the task they’ve been told to do.
For me and DW we are much more willing to serve AND make an effort to improve the quality of the program when it directly benefits our children. (I am the cub scout bear den leader and DW is the Activity Days leader)
Heber13 wrote:
But there are times I have to have the discussions in bishop’s offices about what I believe and how willing I am to sacrifice, and those have to be navigated carefully so I can stay involved with my kids and family on the rituals and traditions that are special to my family. I do just enough to get what I find as fulfillment out of church, and look for the rest outside of church.
:thumbup: Don’t take that as I don’t believe the church is true, or that I’m dishonest or nuance it so it is not with integrity…I don’t feel it is that. I just see the church for what it is. I accept the goodness and the power and the spiritual side it helps my life…but it doesn’t have to be literal…it’s just what it is, and it does add to my life. Just isn’t EVERYTHING in life and I’m not sure what it means in the afterlife…we’ll figure that out when we get to it. Meanwhile…there are a good group of saints trying to live gospel principles, and I am there to be with them.
SilentDawning wrote:
new leaders who see you on various high profile, apparently high potential lists like “endowed members without TR’s”, High Priests or simply active at church but not deeply engaged. They want to activate you, or sometimes, simply get work out of you to fulfil the needs of the Ward. Those are tough conversations.
Agreed. And that is about them. If they “activate” me …they move on to the next or on with other callings, I still have my life. So…regardless of what they think I NEED to do with my religion, I appreciate their input and direction and take it in as consideration of what I can do and what I should do to bless my family, and let go of the expectation I have to do it to please others or to get off their list or off the ward council agenda. I’m just me, this is how I do it…it’s all part of a grand plan and I have my path. Others have theirs.
I know I need a TR to see my kids sealed in the temple, or baptize or ordain my kids. I am willing to do what I need to for that, regardless of any doctrinal background to it or emotions I feel. My priority is to ordain my sons, be the witness for the sealing for my daughters, and all that mormon stuff we do that is symbolic of eternal families.
It’s important to my family. I find ways to make it relevant to me personally, and let go of the rest of it.
It usually means I plan ahead of time so the leaders have few concerns about me, and I answer interview questions with yes or no.
Heber13 wrote:
Agreed. And that is about them. If they “activate” me …they move on to the next or on with other callings,That’s how I see it — they want me to behave in certain ways which is often for the Ward’s benefit, and not with any consideration for my personal circumstances. They don’t have my perspective — they haven’t experienced the sleepless nights, the “lunchbag letdown” when the leaders behave in ways that I think run counter to our church values. They don’t have a disabled family member to support eventually, and they don’t know the state of my mental and physical health. As you say, they “activate me” and then move on to their next item on the to do list, while my own life is affected.
I suppose if I felt they truly cared for me personally, and if I saw great caring for the members as a whole by the church at large, I might see them as less self-interested. For example, they left us without a building to meet in for 3 years while our existing building sat there, unrenovated and work stopped. Apparently this was due to bureaucracy, with no significant communication about timelines to our local stake leadership. Things like that that hurt my perception of a caring organization that balances organizational and personal needs. Our Ward had to drive long distances to a different building for those three years; there was no apparent urgency on the part of the church to use our time wisely in travel, so they just let the building sit there, with no progress for much of that 3 year period. Our Bishop made us drive over to the substitute building 6 months before they even made our home building inaccessible because it was closer to his home!
I have other examples like that which are both systemic, and a result of leadership roulette. They make the impression that people don’t care.
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I still have my life. So…regardless of what they think I NEED to do with my religion, I appreciate their input and direction and take it in as consideration of what I can do and what I should do to bless my family, and let go of the expectation I have to do it to please others or to get off their list or off the ward council agenda. I’m just me, this is how I do it…it’s all part of a grand plan and I have my path. Others have theirs.Exactly — other members did exactly the same thing to me when I was a leader. There are times when I feel that being assertive is my right as well. Also, getting on your own clock — your own system for how you will relate to the church is critical to inner peace. And it means not caring about your reputation among orthodox leaders.
Quote:I know I need a TR to see my kids sealed in the temple, or baptize or ordain my kids. I am willing to do what I need to for that, regardless of any doctrinal background to it or emotions I feel. My priority is to ordain my sons, be the witness for the sealing for my daughters, and all that mormon stuff we do that is symbolic of eternal families.
But I draw the line at saying what I have to say in order to get a TR — particularly when I know I have no intention of keeping it up for the long term. I am fortunate my daughter and wife are supportive of that — partly due to my home training that makes it a family, cultural value that the church cannot come between our relationships, even if we have drastically different ideas about how to participate.
I respect that, but just to clarify…I don’t say what I need to say, I do what I need to do. I have no idea what I will or will not do tomorrow, bit today I can live it and answer it honestly. I believe the TR questions are about if you are living worthy to answer them today, not if hypothetically what you may or may not do tomorrow. Not saying my interpretation is more right, we each choose how to live the gospel. Just clarifying between doing and saying because I don’t want it to sound insincere or dishonest.
Tomorrow the church may change . And so may I. Tomorrow will take care of itself.
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