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I have no basis for this other than my own thinking…but I feel the church has acknowledged the need to relax on the stuffy rules of our grandfathers. Today’s world just doesn’t obey because “it is what we do” for no good reason. We’ve been seeing lots of changes lately. I maintain that the brethren are smart enough to have common sense about change, even if they are slow and deliberate in doing it.
Even my missionary son has told me the visiting general authorities have been talking to missionaries about the need to relax on some rules that are not necessary.
With these changes, and the global nature of the church and some changes that would mean more to people outside Utah, I gotta think coffee and tea would be up there with things that are ready to change.
It would be a simple change, to me, and makes sense. No longer asking specifically about coffee or tea on TR interviews or for baptism. Reiterate to all members the spirit of the word of wisdom, and that it should not be a laundry list of specific things told by the church on what we can and cannot drink or eat, but teach the principles and let people govern themselvse on how they apply the spirit of the commandment.
In my last lesson this past sunday in Priesthood meeting, I had the class read this quote aloud about families deciding how to do home study:
Quote:
If they will prayerfully look at the manual and other resources, then they will be able to see how they can use them in a way that is “best for their individual and family situation,” he said.…
“The strongest feeling is that we should not regulate families or individuals or determine what they should do,” he said.
I believe a similar change in the Word of Wisdom would be in line with the types of changes being made, and it actually would be a welcome change for other world-wide cultures and for missionary work. It wouldn’t be that big of a deal.
And it would remove the feeling that Word of Wisdom on coffee and tea is simply a test of obedience, even if there are so many other items on a health code that are not included from our current interpretation that have resorted to specific coffee and tea.
What do you all think?
Is this likely change to come soon?
Speaking for myself, this would be wonderful! The myth of the WoW as a health code needs to go away. In my view it is a very public obedience test. That is where it begins and where it ends with me. This is one thing that feels very “Law of Moses” to me. I’ve done a lot of research on the WoW and it has been fascinating how it started to how it has evolved to what is generally practiced today. We’ve gone from “greeting” to “constrained” and “commanded” in direct violation of D&C 89. This is yet another example where practice has gotten in the way of doctrine. I think much the same can be said for other social issues the church is facing today. I have been pretty candid in some of my posts here that I have very strong feelings on the WoW. It’s not my number one issue, but I find the whole fixation on it to be nonsensical. This goes back to high school when one of my closest friends left the church because of what she views as the crazy interpretation of D&C 89. I felt it was silly that she left over that, but in hindsight I completely understand. It turned out not to be her only issue, just the most public one.
I personally have been in situations where I have been seen with coffee or other things. Or I have been in pictures (while not participating) on social media with people who are partaking of the forbidden items. You would have thought I was drowning babies from the way people responded to it. There is such a deep and ingrained aversion to these things I would be very surprised if anything changed. Look how long it took for someone in church HQ to talk about caffeinated soda. Even now that’s a gray area (although you can now get diet coke at BYU, so it’s all on the up and up now). Even my spouse feels in some part that my lack of faith is due to my issues with the WoW. I’ve tried to explain that it is a symptom, not a cause. Meeting someone for coffee or over a drink has had very positive social effects for me, as I am a classic introvert. But that’s for me. I’ve learned everyone is different and has different hot buttons. I’m very moderate in my habits. I’ve found a balance that works for me. Like all things in life, it requires constant awareness and adjustment.
I served my mission in South America, in an area that Yerba Mate was a way of life. I personally see no difference between Yerba and Green tea. I drank Mate regularly while I was on my mission, since word was that it was not against the WoW. Of course I also drank Coke often on P-Day eve, and that was against the mission rules (as was observing P-Day eve). However, if Mate was enforced as the same as tea, then there would have been very few members of the church in that area. I’ve also never understood why WoW was a condition to joining the church. As part of the TR process, it’s the high bar of membership, not the low bar, IMO.
I hope I haven’t offended anyone with these thoughts. I do understand there is real danger with some of the proscribed items, particularly alcohol.
I also hope for this change. I pray for this change. It could be one less area for people to be judged and found wanting.
How about going back to “not by way of commandment…” as it was intended originally. Broad suggestion and from “the best books” imparting great wisdom… Thoughts?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Totally agree, lotsofgray (obviously from my longwinded post above). I did want to add one addendum. With credit to the user Off The Rameamptum, they shared the following article in a previous thread of mine. I found it very interesting and I have shared it widely with like-minded people:
https://rationalfaiths.com/temple-recommend-status-word-wisdom-observance-contemporary-mormonism/ Anyone know the history of wow and when it became commandment instead of suggestion??? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
There is a good history of the Word of Wisdom from Dialogue. https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V14N03_80.pdf ” class=”bbcode_url”> https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V14N03_80.pdf Also, there is a decent book and quick read on getting the facts straight about it you can purchase:
Quote:The Word of Wisdom by Steven C. Harper (2008, Paperback)
I find it interesting how it seemed to come into the church as a tradition from cultural beliefs back in the 1800s, but then got codified.
But clearly even into the early 1900s, church leaders were interpreting it differently…some emphasizing not eating meat, and others focusing on coffee and tea. And various ways of alcohol consumption, but emphasis on moderation not abstinence for many.
Again…I think this is the kind of thing the currently leadership is open to…taking traditions of our fathers, and shedding the arbitrary rules that don’t have a real basis for revelation and commandment.
Rumin8 makes lots of good points about other things like Mate, and it just seems to show how we cling to traditions. And also how little some people know the real history of it and the changes over time until it morphed into the rule we have today…which seems unnecessary to me and even becomes a hinderance to some people coming to church. My aunt, for example, just doesn’t feel comfortable with so much emphasis on it. She understands there is a test of faith she is not willing to follow and she loves coffee…but it makes her feel “less than” or 2nd class citizen and has stopped going to church. I’m sure there are lots of factors…but her coffee is the top one she brings up about not feeling comfortable at church.
It seems 1940s authoritarian correlation commandment to me. Outdated. Of little use. Needs changed.
We are VERY proud of the “D&C WoW”. We hold to it as a sure sign Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, and praise it as a health code “many years ahead of its time”. It is SUPER out of date, and is in need of serious revision. Heck, most members don’t know or follow half of it. But we LOVE it. As for the “TR WoW” (which solely focuses on five abstinences), since its inclusion in the TR interview, it’s been pretty hard engrained into our cultural identity. It’s a mark of pride for us. When people think of “Mormons” one of the first things they think of is, “they don’t drink alcohol or coffee”. To make matters worse, we even go so far as to equating the D&C WoW and the TR Wow, believing they are one in the same, when they really are not.
I expect the TR interview to change under President Nelson. It has changed in the past, and it is fairly easy to change. But I have a hard time imagining the “TR WoW” changing anytime soon. I don’t think it will, before we do away with most if not all of the TR Interview (fingers crossed!). But I fully expect, even if it is taken off the TR Interivew, the “TR WoW” will always be considered a commandment, even if it is more loosely enforced, like in Brigham Young’s time.
lotsofgray wrote:
How about going back to “not by way of commandment…” as it was intended originally. Broad suggestion and from “the best books” imparting great wisdom…
The D&C Word of Wisdom is super outdated, and no one really follows it. Plus, to be frank, as a health code, it kind of sucks. There are plenty of better health guidelines out there. I guess there’s some wisdom here and there, but as a whole, I wouldn’t say there’s anything exceptionally wise about it. I do think there is wisdom is staying away from Coffee, black tea, alcohol, tobacco, narcotics, and opiods, but that’s a whole different “WoW” from the one found in the D&C.
lotsofgray wrote:
Anyone know the history of wow and when it became commandment instead of suggestion???
Brigham Young made the abstinences part of it a “soft commandment”, meaning it was technically a commandment, but still left up to personal implementation, so long as you weren’t publically drunk, or chewing in the tabernacle. But growing tobacco to sell to non-Mormon traders was strongly encouraged (BY was first and foremost a capitalist).
Heber J Grant made Brigham Young’s “soft commandment” into an explicit “hard commandment” and included it in the TR interview.
I think there are two changes the Church could make immediately that would not require anyone to raise an eyebrow: – eliminated coffee and tea as prohibitions.
– eliminate WoW as a test for baptism, but keep it as a temple-worthiness issue (thus making the transition from non-member to member easier)
I would love for the Church to relax beer/wine use, but I don’t see that happening… or at least if it did, I’d stay off the roads in Utah for a few weeks.
I am extremely glad to have given up coffee and tea. The word of wisdom is the biggest practical life change that I have made, and I think I would continue living it if I left the church.The general public aren’t aware of all the health risks connected with them from triggering epilepsy and insomnia/disrupted sleep, depression, anxiety etc over to the cardiovascular problems that it causes, from hemorrhoids to heart attacks.
I don’t consider drinking tea and coffee a sin, but I do consider it a health risk.
I view the word of wisdom as the 1800s version of social media and it’s issues. It is 2019, smart phones are everywhere, everyone seems to have a facebook and twitter, people are snap chatting and tick tocking, and so on. Social media is objectifying both men and women, we are finding it easier than ever to hide our identity on the internet and bully others. It’s easy to encourage and support questionable and disgusting immoral ideas such as someone wanting to hurt themselves or road rage and illegal trading. So much of the world is connected, not to mention the movies and TV shows that are available for all ages to view for free on any device almost anywhere in public or at home. With this said… I ponder if the word of wisdom was the “social media warning” of the 1800s. As previously mentioned, the idea of chewing tobacco in certain situations was disrespectful and disgusting to those who had to clean up the mess. Getting drunk has always had it’s problems, but was definitely culturally reacted to in a different light back then than it is now. Of course, they didn’t have cell phones, the internet, social media or cultural propaganda. I wonder though, if such things were available back then, if the word of wisdom would have been expanded or even refocused more on mental, emotional and sexual health vs the physical health that was most understood. What would our word of wisdom contain? We see some of these ideas in the strength of youth standards, specifically movies, dating and other social events that contain questionable morals. Watching PG:13 movies or waiting until you’re 16 to date. These guidelines have been intended, for better or worse, to prevent as much emotional, sexual and psycological distress as possible.
So I guess to summarize; I ponder if the word of wisdom was intended to help prevent problems for the early saints based on their current social struggles, and if social media existed back then, I wonder if we would see restrictions or encouragement to “access facebook sparingly”?
As much as I would love to see a change to the WoW (or at the very least, specific clarification from on high) I have my doubts about it happening. Like it was said before, it’s such a huge part of our cultural identity and is often pointed to as Joseph Smith having knowledge beyond his time. I don’t see that being changed anytime soon. But, I’ve been pleasantly surprised before, like with 2 hour church :thumbup: On Own Now wrote:
I think there are two changes the Church could make immediately that would not require anyone to raise an eyebrow:– eliminated coffee and tea as prohibitions.
– eliminate WoW as a test for baptism, but keep it as a temple-worthiness issue (thus making the transition from non-member to member easier)
I think eliminating it as a requirement for baptism would be a fantastic thing. *warning mission story ahead* On my mission, there was a lady we were teaching who desperately wanted to join the church. She was a wonderful lady and loved the gospel. But, she had a hard life and smoking was a huge challenge for her. She tried quitting countless times but never could. She got things like patches and teas to help her quit, and my companion would inspect the ingredients on the back and tell her yes or no because I guess he was in the know on what chemicals were specifically okay and what wasn’t
🙄 . When challenging her to quit, my companion would say things like, “Do believe that faith can heal your addiction so you can get baptized?” And then when she relapsed, she felt like she was a worthless, faithless and sinful person who God didn’t love.Had smoking not been regarded as an immoral sin that restricts you from baptism, then she could potentially be living happily in the Gospel rather than feeling like a weak, worthless piece of garbage who God won’t let get baptized.
Like PazamaManX, I can think of many, many people we taught on my mission that probably would have been baptized if not for an issue with the WoW. Usually coffee. Coffee. We’re denying a saving ordinance from someone because of coffee. Besides, what’s more preferable, having someone be a member of the church, attending our meetings, and learning as a coffee drinker or putting up a barrier to that kind of progress… over coffee? So we can continue to enjoy how peculiar we are. I think WoW rules will relax in some way or other as the church opens up mission work in new cultures and countries. Relax as in removing a restriction as a requirement for baptism or removing a restriction for all members.
Rumin8’s yerba mate example. I have no way of knowing, but a part of me says that allowance was made because the missionary efforts would have been frustrated in that area if not for the allowance. Who knows, relaxing the bans on tea and coffee alone could create a swell in convert baptisms. The temptation to get at those numbers may become greater over time.
If they relaxed the rules on tea and coffee I wouldn’t start drinking them, I’m not lobbying for personal reasons, I just don’t get coffee and tea. It feels like a silly hill to die on in 2019.
As an example, when I look at the nutritional content of a cup of tea it looks very similar to a glass of water (if you don’t add a lot of stuff). When I look at the nutritional content of a can of soda I see about 140 calories and 40g of sugar. I see a lot of people that make sodas their primary source (and in extreme cases only source) of liquid intake. Yet all that sugar is somehow better than a drop of tea. Because…
It feels like the WoW needs a refresh. It feels out of balance. Now, we could take the tack of making it more strict. Add lots of stuff to the prohibited list like soda, energy drinks, sugar, salt, etc. Or we could relax it a little, remove coffee and tea and turn the law into one of moderation in all things. Don’t go nuts on the coffee, don’t go nuts on the tea, don’t go nuts on the sodas. Find a balance. We will no longer police, we can’t police your balance. If we want to live higher laws we’ve got to start trusting people to live their balance. Insisting on total abstinence and policing it feels like the opposite of trust.
nibbler wrote:
We’re denying a saving ordinance from someone because of coffee. Besides, what’s more preferable, having someone be a member of the church, attending our meetings, and learning as a coffee drinker or putting up a barrier to that kind of progress… over coffee? So we can continue to enjoy how peculiar we are.
I hope one day we can have a paradigm shift in the Church, where we start thinking of sins as “barriers to progress”, rather than using it to lump people into categories of righteous/wicked. Being addicted to coffee, having it ruin your innards, is a “barrier” in itself. We don’t need to add to it by telling coffee drinkers they aren’t “good enough”.
PazamaManX wrote:
As much as I would love to see a change to the WoW (or at the very least, specific clarification from on high) I have my doubts about it happening. Like it was said before, it’s such a huge part of our cultural identity and is often pointed to as Joseph Smith having knowledge beyond his time. I don’t see that being changed anytime soon. But, I’ve been pleasantly surprised before, like with 2 hour church:thumbup: On Own Now wrote:
I think there are two changes the Church could make immediately that would not require anyone to raise an eyebrow:– eliminated coffee and tea as prohibitions.
– eliminate WoW as a test for baptism, but keep it as a temple-worthiness issue (thus making the transition from non-member to member easier)
I think eliminating it as a requirement for baptism would be a fantastic thing. *warning mission story ahead* On my mission, there was a lady we were teaching who desperately wanted to join the church. She was a wonderful lady and loved the gospel. But, she had a hard life and smoking was a huge challenge for her. She tried quitting countless times but never could. She got things like patches and teas to help her quit, and my companion would inspect the ingredients on the back and tell her yes or no because I guess he was in the know on what chemicals were specifically okay and what wasn’t
🙄 . When challenging her to quit, my companion would say things like, “Do believe that faith can heal your addiction so you can get baptized?” And then when she relapsed, she felt like she was a worthless, faithless and sinful person who God didn’t love.Had smoking not been regarded as an immoral sin that restricts you from baptism, then she could potentially be living happily in the Gospel rather than feeling like a weak, worthless piece of garbage who God won’t let get baptized.
As a missionary myself a few years ago, I was convinced the word of wisdom was essential to get into heaven, that it was the filter of which we could become clean physically and therefore allow the Holy Ghost to be with us more. Therefore, I testified and tried to convince my investigators that they wouldn’t have the spirit in full if they kept drinking or smoking. And I wouldn’t even focus on the physical health benefits and cons that are scientifically taught about smoking and coffee, etc. But the church (and specifically the MTC, more specifically the PMG) has taught missionaries that coffee is evil and that anyone who struggles with it is doomed until they use the atonement to stop drinking and be saved.
Law of chastity commandments make sense for baptism requirements. most of the other expectations make sense. But drinking coffee and declaring the word of wisdom as a commandment (while often not even covering eating healthy and managing your weight, addiction to non foods, etc) seemed to be the mormon thing to do.
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