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The past week has been very challenging for me. My family is in the process of moving and is currently visiting family in Utah while the house is being prepared. I haven’t been to Utah to visit my family for several years, though a few family members have visited me. I also have emotionally become inactive in the church because of the pressures I feel from much of the teachings. I was hoping that coming to Utah to visit parents and families would give me more insight on my spiritual journey and my true beliefs. My first impression was how beautiful Utah (especially the mountains) is. I have also decided not to divulge my change of beliefs to the family. I have been observing the way they talk and the culture within the community. I think that my mormon upbringing in Utah is much different then some, though probably similar to others. I am learning a lot about myself and my family. I must say I am having a major “paradigm shift” or perhaps “paradigm acceptance” through this process. I should also say that I want to run as far away from here as possible, but am committed for a few more weeks. Here is what I’m noticing: My parents taught us to believe in the Gospel “without question.” However, they would never have us do this in any other area of our lives. We need to be logical and study things out. But with the church, when a leaders states they have had “revelation” it is from God. I asked how they feel about “SSA” and my dad said if anyone in our family was gay he would disown them. My mom uses “Fear” and “Guilt” as the tool for change and repentance. I’ve also noticed that the topic of “politics” referring to the current U.S. administration is a very “hot” topic in the family. My family directly links “conservatism” to God and “liberalism” to Satan. They often bring up how now days is the “sign” of the second coming from a negative point of view. Again “fear” as a motivation for beliefs. Also if you agree with my family on “politics” you are a good mormon. If you disagree then you must be sinning. God is going to smash us all because of our sins. This seems to be the basic thought. However I keep thinking, well fear doesn’t come from God and I think Christ’s Atonement was meant to take away the fears. What about acceptance, love, forgiveness, compassion, trust in God, beauty, joy, happiness, and Grace? Don’t they see the hypocracy in judging like this with all the sins we each commit? Seriously if the Celestial Kingdom is full of self righteous attitudes of ethnocentric dogma I’ll take the lower kingdom. Frankly I’m not sure if I want to be a God, I just want to be a better person each day. Plus, I like to live in a different State then my siblings. I’m okay with a kingdom apart in heaven.
I guess my question is do any of you experience this within your families? It seems so extreme to me to think the way my family does. It also feels emotionally damaging. I mean the way I see it, we are all going to die, so if the second coming is finally around the corner “great!” When I agreed with my mom on points she said “you are starting to learn” as if some how she thinks she is better then me. I’m not a child anymore. And though I don’t profess to be the smartest in the room, I have been through a lot in my life. My family seems to equate money and success with righteousness, and poverty with sin. Their beliefs in the church seem almost directly tied to their political and emotional system directing their lives every move. I feel like they are so deep into this process of thinking that discussing anything with them regarding my true feelings would only make my experience here unfortunate. One thing that really AFFECTED me was when my mom said that if the church ruled the world things would be much better; comparing that to our government. This really got me thinking… If our church ruled the world would I like it? I actually don’t know if I would. I mean gays would be treated horrible. Cultures, costumes (such as multiple ear rings) etc. might be disallowed. Movies would be censored to a LARGE degree. Sex would be treated differently. History would be taught from a more western point of view around the world. What would the internet look like? I really don’t know if I would be happy in such a place. This leads me to think that I am probably not “such” a good mormon.
I guess I don’t know how to continue living in such an unhealthy environment and I’m not sure if this is because of my family or the church. But I do know that many times members become my friends, but then they find that I’m not the true “Limbaugh Mormon” they thought I was and react as if I’m a sheep in “wolf’s” clothing. I guess this makes me wonder if maybe they are “right.” I might be a wolf “to them” and yet I was really just trying to be a sheep but I can’t help it when it’s a full moon (being halloween week and all!
👿 ) So I am analyzing what it is that I do that causes such a reaction with members. I must admit that I don’t fit with the mormon mold. Here is a taste!:1) I voted yes on prop 8. But I disagreed with it completely. I did it because I was told to follow the prophet. Looking at medicine and the realities of molecular biology etc. that discover the process and development of a baby and attraction, there is no way that it’s wrong to be gay. So it’s not a SIN and we should accept it through medicine as the individuals proper identity. I mean we trust doctors with other diagnosis. Come on!
2) Lying. What is worse telling the “truth” or telling members and leaders what they want to hear? In the past I have always done what I was told but never felt comfortable doing many of the items. I can’t stand PPI’s. Not because I feel unworthy, but because there is no way that the Elders Quorum President should be allowed to ask me anything personal about my worthiness. I don’t even like to discuss it with my Bishop. I think it actually is WRONG to proactively ask others about their worthiness. I believe that it is a tactic to control a person. I also don’t like being guilt into church service activities, and especially others serving me out of guilt or obligation. Please just stay home. I would rather watch a movie instead of going through the process of church callings out of duty and not “love.” I’m busy enough as it is. I guess I believe that these are all protocols that create more problems then benefits. I also don’t want a calling. But in the past I never said “no.” I’ve been taught by my family that it’s wrong to say “no” when asked to be in a calling.
3) The truth is I question what authority really is in the church. My experience has been that most Bishops and SP’s are wealthier successful men. I wonder if they are picked because of this and not by some “spiritual” inspiration. I mean look at the line up of the twelve apostles. Look at their jobs and education. It seems more logical to call people who are versed in Law, Education etc. to protect the church from the not so nice opposition to the church. I’ve found that most leaders are constantly discouraging people from sharing “spiritual experiences” and even criticize those that share them, especially if they do not fall in line with the church policies. Many members would laugh at someone today in the church that claimed a direct visit from God or other visions. I don’t blame them because a lot of the stories are crazy. Just like the idea that someone can actually live in a whale for three days. But my family believes that is factual.
I have had some personal testimony builders on the existence of God. The truth is I’ve experienced some incredible things. But I don’t share them with many. It does however help me to continue to believe in God. I guess this leads me to the question of “is it better to stay in the church and continue to run into problems with members that discover I’m not what they thought, or leave the church to those that fit the mold?” The last thing I would want is to get “kicked” out or punished. Especially if I chose to do something, like drink a little, that is contrary to the church’s teachings. I tend to not push my opinion on others, on the other hand I could see myself slip in a direct interview with a bishop during a temple recommend about certain things. I haven’t broken a temple commandment per say but now that I’m evolving I don’t want to be a hypocrite. I would rather go inactive then pretend I’m perfect mormon. The sad part is I do like many of the teachings and I have two beautiful children who could use a nice church setting for growing up in. I just don’t know how to do this. I don’t know how to raise kids out side the church. This is the tough part for me. But, isn’t it just better to go inactive then face the reality of what could happen in active attendance if I’m not living the standards of the church. Does this make sense? Has anyone thought about it? I don’t want to add more stress to my life then I already have.
he, he, he, LOL . . . . welcome to Utah!!!! It is a challenge to use both the right and the left hemisphere of my brain. It is a challenge to use both my right and left hand. If you don’t use BOTH side of the mind and body, you lose nerve cells. Lateralization of the brain occurs, this is when you only use one hemisphere of the brain consistently. The unused side of the brain begins to deteriorate. So many nerve cells die that the one side of the brain is functionally dead.
You can begin to restore the body and mind by learning how to use both sides of the body (yoga) and learning how to use both sides of the brain. Politically, there is actually different opposing logic between the Republican and Democratic Party. It is very mentally healthy to watch debates and listen to both sides. The brain really has to work when two opposing arguments are presented because the logic (mercy verses justice), (immediate benefit verses long-term gain) causes the nerves cells on both sides of the brain to really fire up. It is like mental yoga (balance) and using all the bodies muscles.
What happens in Utah is that we have become so extremely lopsided politically that we constantly hear the exact same logic over and over again. Our brains don’t actually have to weigh, contrast, compare, extrapolate, imagine, envision or explore. The brain simply has to store information it already has memorized (hardly any mental work) and then regurgitate it. We begin to sound and speak like human parrots. We cannot process new ideas, so the brain has to reject them. We will vote straight ticket, same party the rest of our lives. This is just one example of lateralization of the brain. I read the book, entitled the “Wisdom Paradox” and it is excellent.
I’m so very glad that you are questioning things, reasoning them out, weighing the logic – this means that you ARE using BOTH sides of your brain. Good for you!!!!
I’m so glad that I don’t live in Utah! My parents live in Idaho (Northern Utah as we sometimes call it), but they have been remarkably tolerant of my pro-Obama views. They have also been largely accepting of other lifestyle choices (limit family size to 1 child, send said child to daycare full-time, etc.) I’m not ready to spring on them the whole of my disaffection, but I have a NOM brother who my parents are aware drinks, and they still love and accept him, so I have hope. He was always a bit rebellious and I was always considered the obedient child, so I am a little worried how news of my disaffection will affect them.
My ward is on the East Coast, so church is a somewhat more liberal environment with lots of Obama supporters (although we just had our ward boundaries realigned to bring in the more conservative suburbs, and our new bishop is a politician who ran as a Libertarian, believes public education is destroying society and all children should be home-schooled, so things might change quickly.)
godlives your post makes me react like MisterCurie, “thank goodness I don’t live in Utah”. However for what it is worth I am a card carrying New Democratic Party member (the Canadian equivalent of your more liberal American Democrats) and have often been attacked by members in various wards as “consorting with evil” and various other comments less pleasant. I was also a lifelong member of a union and active in that process which was perhaps even more evil in the eyes of some people in the ward. So, though I think Utah seems to have a more virulent form of the problem it is a tendancy throughout the Church to move to a conservative political stance and then consider that to be the “word of God” in politics. I am actually sorry to say this but I see the process exactly as part of the Book of Mormon cycle where a people who have been righteous then begin to experience blessing and prosperity and very soon start to think that they are the ones who are so good and righteous and begin the slow slide into major difficulty. This “culture of intolerance” that is building in the Church is
NOT THE GOSPEL and NOT what the Church really teaches, nor what Christ would be pleased with. I personally think that people like you and people on this board are amongst the the core of members who will help to drag the membership back towards a more Christ like attitude and process of viewing their brothers and sisters. So don’t leave the Church, we need you. On the other hand, as is clear from most of our experiences on the board there is little use in pushing our opinions and spiritual insights on to others. I think you are right to remain quiet , think of it as Ghandi like stoic acceptance of reality
Quote:The truth is I’ve experienced some incredible things. But I don’t share them with many. It does however help me to continue to believe in God. I guess this leads me to the question of “is it better to stay in the church and continue to run into problems with members that discover I’m not what they thought, or leave the church to those that fit the mold?” The last thing I would want is to get “kicked” out or punished. Especially if I chose to do something, like drink a little, that is contrary to the church’s teachings.
You MUST keep in mind that the “mold” such members are fitting is not Christ’s mold, it is much more like Lucifer’s plan of guaranteeing salvation by completing mandating behavior and thought, this mold needs to change and shift and become more Christ like, and even the leadership understands this with their recent shifting of emphasis towards a more Christ centered approach (I know lots of people see that as pure PR and attempting to warm up to the other protestant Churches but I don’t think so).
I do agree that I hate PPIs and have only had one Elders Quorum president in my entire life whom I even considered being completely open with and that was in a circumstance where I was in addition his first counsellor. He had the job right, we spent almost all of our energy helping and supporting members in a myriad of various ways rather than trying to police attitudes and church behavior. So when I get in those situations I simply concentrate on answering “Yes” or “No” to the questions with full sincerity and add as little as possible.
So a bit of advice coming from a convert of 40 some years. I was brought up in a totally alcoholic family, for some reason and I suppose it was Heavenly Father, I was very early on so angry about the behavior of all the adults around me that I told myself I would never do any of that, ever. It meant that I survived until I was converted at 21 but there is nothing attractive, cool or full of blessing in anything to do with alcohol, don’t even start down that road.
FWIW, I would not recommend divulging your whole dump truck packed full of different view points while on vacation visiting your family. I think you know this, but thought I would point that out. You are visiting family. Just let it be as pleasant as possible and enjoy the reunion with them. Honor thy father and mother is a loving concept with many angles. My wife had a rocky relationship with her own mother for several years at the beginning of our marriage. We had to abruptly leave a few times in the middle of visits until she really was able to cut the strings and set up solid boundaries. Things were fine after that. But I think that kind of relationship can happen with parents, at least the way you describe yours (from what little info I have). DW’s mother was also used guilt heavily in the way she related to her children, and how she tried to motivate them. It can be well-meaning, but seems to deliver a ton of baggage along the way. Welcome to the journey of conjoining the rational with the irrational (and irrational is not bad, just a large part of us outside the conscious mind). That is another thing I picked up reading your post. You have had wonderful spiritual experiences you value, but you are also struggling with a changing structure to your faith. It’s a roller coaster ride. We know. We’re all here at the same amusement park full of thrill rides
😯 Don’t worry about being kicked out or punished. Hehe. This is how I think of it: “Look, you guys created me (the Church). Now you are stuck with me.” Like you, I feel that the LDS Church is my tribe. I love it in a lot of ways. I am Mormon, which is something that I decided. I speak the language. I know the culture. I’ve poured a large part of my life into this tribe. It is *MY* community too, as much as anyone else can lay claim to it. They aren’t getting rid of me. I’m a shareholder now
I think you will be more comfortable over time with this. Go slow. Take time. There’s no rush. Don’t worry about your children so much. You will compensate in their lives to correct the ways you now dislike that your parents acted. This is the ebb and flow of generational transition over time. I have children now as old as 18. They are not brainwashed by the Church. They are fine, and I am often proud of their critical thinking skills … which by the way are now often directed by our teenagers at me and my wife. You know what though? I am glad, and I tell them that. If they think we are screwups, power too ’em. I tell them they should go out and fix the world and do it different than I did. That is what young people have a passion for. I know I am not perfect, and I definitely am a screwup
You are in charge now. You. You. You. And I am sure you sense this already. Leaders are just other people, and they are more or less just as good or bad at being a leader than you would be. They are just people. Sure, I still believe in guidance from leaders. Other people’s views are valuable. But the only authority over you is that link between God and you… which boils down to you making decisions as best you can. Life is messy. God made it that way, as far as I can see so far.
godlives wrote:My parents taught us to believe in the Gospel “without question.” However, they would never have us do this in any other area of our lives. We need to be logical and study things out. But with the church, when a leaders states they have had “revelation” it is from God.
Sorry to hear it has been a struggle. If everyone would just think the same way, there wouldn’t be these problems in families
Your description of your family situation sounds all too “Stage 3” to me, and the closer I get to Utah, I think the more I have experienced this.
I don’t mean to down play any of your situation, only to share my thoughts that I think there are many attitudes like this, whether because of Mormon culture, generational gaps, or just church and families include mortals who find it easier to follow the path of least resistance (obedience without question) than deeply seeking the true meaning and applications of Christ’s teachings. Yes, I’ve experienced similar things you have described, and I include them as part of my journey to be honest and true to myself (if God is really leading me than I must have faith in this new path), as well as keep loving and developing relationships with family so we can all benefit from each other, despite our different circumstances or beliefs.
godlives wrote:I’m not a child anymore. And though I don’t profess to be the smartest in the room, I have been through a lot in my life.
godlives wrote:I guess I don’t know how to continue living in such an unhealthy environment and I’m not sure if this is because of my family or the church. But I do know that many times members become my friends, but then they find that I’m not the true “Limbaugh Mormon” they thought I was and react as if I’m a sheep in “wolf’s” clothing. I guess this makes me wonder if maybe they are “right.”
I like this thought you share:You are not a child anymore– none of us want to be treated that way, but it also means that when it is difficult with family, you don’t act like a child anymore (not saying you do…I’m just making the point). Even when you’re an adult, they will always be your parents. The relationships have to adapt and develop to a more mature relationship to allow you to be an adult, and still respect them as your parents or family members. That takes some effort by all involved, but I think is necessary. Think of the way Nephi dealt with his family situation…he didn’t agree with his Dad’s attitude, but he still respected his mom and dad and deferred to their direction, but sometimes had to enlighten them in a respectful way. This is what I view as the benefit of church and family that I hold on to…neither are perfect, but both provide things I want, and so it motivates me to want to try to reconcile, love, forgive, serve, and develop meaningful relationships through making the effort to communicate and share things that bond us together with others. That is my motivating force, but regardless of how much I try to reconcile with family or the church, I realize there will be others who will not be willing to provide the same to me (they just may not be ready to yet, but someday will see how love prevails over fear and anger)…so that is ok for now…I try to accept it as it is. I think God will judge us all and I will need to show I can do my best to try to work things out, not just move to another state so I don’t have to deal with it. I will grow by dealing with it, even if it is painful.
To be honest, I think I have been able to show many in my family how compassionate and loving one can be, and that focusing on the person as Jesus did is sometimes the most important thing (2nd Greatest Commandment). I think that even though my family and ward members has been startled and worried about me, the more I keep showing my love, the more their hearts open up and see that maybe there is something to what Heber thinks and I’m not “lost” or crazy, even if they still can’t agree with me on my liberal ideas.
Those are just my thoughts. Easier said than done, and I realize all situations are different, but that is where I start with my attitude and just focus on doing all I can do, and try to let go of expecting perfection in this life.
I guess I could have just kept my comments shorter and just said…
“I agree with Valoel, follow his wise advice:”
Valoel wrote:You are in charge now. You. You. You. And I am sure you sense this already. Leaders are just other people, and they are more or less just as good or bad at being a leader than you would be.
Amen to that.
Godlives, I don’t have much to add, I just wanted to let you know that I too have experienced things similar to what you describe. “The perfect Mormon” is an illusion, all humans are equally un-perfect (I know that’s not a word, it’s an illustration
The challenge is to love people in spite of their flaws. This applies ESPECIALLY to the people in Utah!
😆 What you’re experiencing is mostly culture, not doctrine, it sometimes helps to see it as such.
Best wishes!
Quote:But with the church, when a leaders states they have had “revelation” it is from God. I asked how they feel about “SSA” and my dad said if anyone in our family was gay he would disown them.
Well, that’s not following what the church leaders said on the topic. Perhaps what one or two meant, but not what they said.
Regardless, I let this stuff just roll off. It seems to me that some people are just hard-wired to be motivated by fear and some just see it as ridiculous. There are authoritarians and anti-authoritarians. So, for me, fear-mongering just fails to impress me.
hawkgrrrl wrote:…some people are just hard-wired to be motivated by fear and some just see it as ridiculous. There are authoritarians and anti-authoritarians. So, for me, fear-mongering just fails to impress me.
Well said, Hawkgrrrl.I wonder sometimes if those hard-wired to be motivated by fear can be softened with love and kindness, or if one has to just accept it is how they are wired and not let it affect the path the one individual is on.
If Mr. Godlives tries to show his parents their attitude is fear-mongering (“if you are gay, I’ll disown you”) will they be enlightened … or do you just let that go and show love by example? Which is the better way?
I personally like the advice of Mr. Campbell quoted in my signature line…let others see the radiance, not convince them of it.
I think Heber13’s right – you can’t really teach people to let go of fear so much as simply not being full of fear yourself and perhaps they will see that it’s not necessary. But I also believe that some people are truly hard-wired this way. It’s just who they are. There’s a lot written about nurturing parents vs. critical parents, and it’s more than just parenting styles – it’s also how you “parent” yourself. Do you constantly point out what’s wrong (perfectionism) or do you reassure yourself (even sometimes to the point of wallowing in self-pity or coddling yourself)? But from everything I’ve read, there needs to be balance on these two styles. If your parents were too far in the critical camp, you might make up for that with yourself by cutting yourself slack (nurturing). Similarly, in a marriage, when one parent is the more critical parent (“just wait until your father gets home!”) the other parent often chooses to make up for that on the nurturing side.
Obligatory codependent reference follows: I can’t remember if it was you godlives who started reading the book “Codependent No More”.
What you described was my family exactly. Everything you said sounded like “home”. My posts here are replete with references to codependency and your parents use of fear and guilt as motivators is the genesis of most codependency. That’s why the church has such a strong pull on members, and why it incites such hateful ire to members who leave.
There’s a huge diatribe I could give about codependency but it seems like I’ve done it too much. Maybe search this forum and find lots of discussion about it. In essence, when we stop concerning ourselves with what others think about us, we discover that the only voice that matters is our own. Which may be God or may be God speaking to us through ourselves. If we’re right with Him (whatever He is) then slowly our concern about what others think about us dwindles away until we can see that they are just trapped in that same paradigm that we just left.
They’re so concerned about you and that makes you feel like you need to be concerned with what they’re thinking about you. You want to influence their thoughts of you. You want them to believe that you are doing what’s right, that you’re perfect, that you are what they always hoped you would be.
The problem is that, at some point, you need to be who YOU want to be. And who you know that God wants you to be. This may mean that they’re disappointed, that they know you’re “wrong”, that you’re evil, or deceived, or whatever. But you can’t control that. You can try, but if it doesn’t work guess who’s going to be bitter and resentful. You.
And this is true for our relationship with the church and, for some, their relationship with God. If we aren’t blessed with what we wanted, we may get bitter towards God. Or if the church doesn’t validate our doubts, we get resentful of it’s ignorance.
But it’s not them, it’s not the church, it’s not the leaders, it’s not our parents, it’s not God. It’s us. We have to take care of ourselves. Trust ourselves. Trust ourselves the way that God trusts us. I know that God trusted me with two of the greatest of His children, my sons. I better trust myself enough to know that if I follow the feelings that God gives me in the ways to raise these boys, I’m doing the job that He wanted. Whether that means going to church or not going to church, teaching the literal or teaching the mythical, etc.
I know what feels right because I don’t care what others think about me. I don’t care if my in-laws don’t like the way I’m doing things. Or if I feel chastised by a GA. I’m right with God. He knows it and I know it. He trusted me. He trusts me. He allows me to think and feel in these ways because He trusts that I’m going to do the right things with this knowledge. I’m a good person and I love my boys more than anything. I’ll know what’s right by the way that I process everything: with an open mind, an open heart, and true loving intent.
This is also true of all aspects of life, politics, employment, marital relationships, friends, etc. We only hurt ourselves because we want others to think well of us. Trust yourself the way that God trusts you.
How was that for the “short” version??
😳 😳 😆
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