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With all the talk about worthiness interviews and worthiness in general I wonder where this comes from. If you looked at the New Testament I don’t see much there. More the contrary it was the unworthy who Jesus hung out with. I guess you could extrapolate from scriptures god cares about worthiness, but Mormons seem to dwell on it to an unhealthy degree.
Why is that? How did we get here?
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two word answer: The bible However, you would be leaning on certain verses more than others (“faith without works is dead” and “The dead were judged according to what they had done”).
Traditionally there was heaven and hell. Who deserved to go to heaven and who deserved to go to hell? If I am 49% good, do I go to hell? If I am 49% bad, do I go to heaven? For some the Atonement of Jesus fixes this problem. Pauline Christianity posits that all of us deserve hell (even with 99% good and 1% bad). Therefore the mercy and grace of Jesus is an undeserved gift.
Ahhh, but how do we qualify for this gift? That is the crux of the matter. Some religions minimize the requirements to emphasize the free and overwhelmingly generous nature of the gift. Some religions maximize the requirements to emphasize behavior, performance, and worthiness.
I believe that the three degree of glory adds an extra layer to the worthiness argument. It splits up heaven into a sliding scale based upon degree of performance. To go along with this is the portrayal of the atonement of Jesus as what I might describe as a DIY self-improvement repentance kit (it contains all the tools and instructions that you will need to get the job done). This system emphasizes fairness and accountability.
I think we have screwed up the words “worth” and “worthiness” – in so doing we mess with people’s understanding of themselves and their human counterparts. Not everyone does this.
I also find it helps me to remember that our present leaders are the final kids of the World War’s. Those wars were won on discipline, exactness, selection. After WWII our country melded God into the narrative. We added his name to the Pledge of Allegiance. Church attendance, for all faiths, was at an all time high. Even non-religious people observed the Judeo- Christian Tenants that we culturally were espousing.
You couple that with the fact that our leadership is all lay leaders, they are a heart surgeon, a Supreme Court Justice, an airline pilot, and so on, they believe the strict follow the leader is the requirement for success. Follow the regimental guidelines to a “T”. I can’t blame them. It works for the stories they know.
However, I also know that one of the reasons we were late to the World Wars was our lack of military improvement. We were still stuck in Civil War mode. We were forced to learn new things – by the outside world. The same will happen here. Will we live to see it? I can’t say. For me I will be happy to embrace anyone and tell them they are worthy – Because they are a Child of God. End of story.
Roy wrote:I believe that the three degree of glory adds an extra layer to the worthiness argument. It splits up heaven into a sliding scale based upon degree of performance. To go along with this is the portrayal of the atonement of Jesus as what I might describe as a DIY self-improvement repentance kit (it contains all the tools and instructions that you will need to get the job done). This system emphasizes fairness and accountability.
Totally agree with this. Our view of the atonement fits in well with our American identity and the free market. If you put in the work and do your part, you will be rewarded. If you slack off and take the easy way out, you will have to answer for that in the life to come and will miss out. It’s interesting, I find that in my discussions with orthodox members about our lists of rules is, the frequent response is “of course it would be more fun to do __________” then many people go on to talk about either the blessings of keeping the commandments or the reward in heaven. It’s a similar mindset to “of course I’d like to quit my job and fish all day, but . . . ”
I don’t necessarily think this is bad. I feel like a life of structure and personal discipline is generally safer, more rewarding and a happier existence. But, I do think it’s worth pointing out that Jesus seemed to preach against this type of thinking and that Paul’s teachings on grace seem to be more about radical acceptance and doing away with the requirement/reward model.
I’ve tried to break out of the requirement/duty/reward/guilt mindset and feel like I’ve been happier and done a lot of the same things but for better reasons. I’ve also stopped doing some things and indulge in others and don’t feel bad about it.
There’s a scripture in the Book of Mormon: Quote:….we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.
Which often gets mistranslated into:
Quote:….we won’t be saved by grace unless we are doing all we can do.
The funny thing about “all we can do” is that in our minds “all we can do” is never enough. We’re our own worst critics. There’s always more we
couldbe doing. Toxic perfectionism and an unhealthy obsession with worthiness is my least favorite thing about the church. I can’t see it being excised from the culture while temple recommends are still a thing.
I’m much more in Mom’s camp on this one, but then again that’s not so unusual. In the new testament Jesus forgave every single person who asked him on the spot, and he even forgave some who didn’t ask him. As usual I am going to be very frank here (feel the power of the dark side): Russell M. Nelson does not believe in the same kind worthiness this thread is about – he is much more in line with the teachings of the Savior, he does understand the atonement of Christ, and while he doesn’t talk much about it, he does understand the role of grace. He is much more in line with the teachings of Joseph Smith than his recent predecessors have been in this regard. That is great DJ. Any sources or quotes to back up your observation? http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9419&hilit=qualification From another thread on the increased use of the word “qualification” in GC.
Quote:RMN: God has allowed us to take a vital step toward becoming more like Him. Satan understands this. He chafes at the fact that his premortal apostasy permanently disqualifies him from this privilege, leaving him in a constant state of jealousy and resentment.
RMN: So, what is required for a family to be exalted forever? We qualify for that privilege by making covenants with God, keeping those covenants, and receiving essential ordinances.
RMN: Those consummate blessings can come only by living in an exalted celestial realm with God, our Eternal Father; His Son, Jesus Christ; and our wonderful, worthy, and qualified family members.
RMN: God’s objective should be our objective. He wants His children to choose to return to Him, prepared, qualified, endowed, sealed, and faithful to covenants made in holy temples.
Of course one may believe in grace, atonement, and exaltation as a free and incredibly generous gift and still believe in the need to become qualified for that gift by lifelong effort. Could any person in the earth (regardless of personal discipline or achievement) ever really deserve the power and worship of Godhood? Therefore, even if your theology called for a Highlander-esque, “there can be only one”, rat race to the finish – the prize of exaltation for coming in first could still be seen as an undeserved and generous gift.
I have shared a few times a revelatory experience that I had after losing our third child in stillbirth and in the depth of grief and assumptive world collapse. I received the distinct message that my daughter was worthy, accepted, and loved.
I received the distinct message that I am worthy, accepted, and loved in the same way and in the same overwhelming fulness as my deceased unborn daughter. This contradicted my entire framework of worthiness and qualification.
God loves me. Period. Full Stop.
God loves you. Period. Full Stop.
The End.
Roy, I love that. I wonder why some people going through a traumatic event in life will feel comfort, peace & inspiration. And someone else will not. The only thing I can come up with is our personal experiences, expectations & God’s will for us.
Does that make any sense?
You read about having to be pure to receive revelation etcetera. But I’ll be frank, I’ve pushed limits and still given spirit-filled blessings. I remember one missionary to whom I was junior on my mission. He’d be looking at girls, making comments about their bodies, and all kinds of almost mean comments to missionaries, and myself in particular. But then he would go into a teaching situation and teach with the Spirit. So, I do believe a certain level of “worthiness” is necessary to have God on your side, but I think the standard is pretty low.
There are certain unworthy areas in my life, but I accept them as necessary for other good things to persist. I think there are lots of tradeoffs involved in being “worthy”.
I remember when I was in my first bout of inactivity over the failed adoption. I would occasionally speak in church. I once had an annual interview with the Bishop, as he waited for me to come out of my less-activity cave. He ended one interview with “I’m not worried about you because I ALWAYS feel the Spirit when you speak or teach”.
I found that interesting. No TR, no tithing, other commandments not being lived in my life, but Bishop, who is to have the gift of discernment and a judge in Israel, tells me he is not worried about me because I carry the Spirit.
Faith in church rules for worthiness reminds me of Thor:
Quote:
Odin: Even when you had two eyes, you’d see only half the picture.Thor: She’s too strong. Without my hammer, I can’t.
Odin: Are you Thor, the God of Hammers? That hammer was to help you control your power, to focus it. It was never your source of strength.
Some people seem to need the church rules like an iron rod to hold something and have it steady them, and it works if they give faith to that. Like garments, or tithing, or WoW…to help practice the gospel principles.
But eventually, heavenly Father wants us to know where our real strength and worthiness comes from.
True strength comes from love and choosing the right thing in the right moment. Regardless of what others do to harness their inner strength.
Minyan Man wrote:
I wonder why some people going through a traumatic event in life will feel comfort, peace & inspiration.And someone else will not. The only thing I can come up with is our personal experiences, expectations & God’s will for us.
Does that make any sense?
I have asked much the same question. I knew of some other individuals that experienced a loss of a child and it seemed to be faith affirming. They found immense comfort in the LDS doctrine of Forever Families and were determined to live their lives in such a way as to ensure that happy reunion. Why was my traumatic experience faith destroying while theirs seemed to be faith affirming. I have come up with 4 main points that I believe tipped the scales for me. 1) I expected my family to be physically protected because of my priesthood service. My expectation proved to be false. 2) Because my daughter died inside the womb as a stillbirth there is a large unknown as to whether she counts as a member of our eternal family (she is not listed on church records and we would not be able to perform vicarious ordinances that include her). This deprived me the confidence of church doctrine in declaring that we will see her again. 3) At the time we were living in the Midwest and had to travel a distance to the local meeting house. A fair portion of the support we received came from non-LDS sources. This included a counselor that I began seeing, some friends that I confided in, a Baptist pastor that ministered to me in my hour of need, and a support group for people who have lost children in death (Compassionate Friends). 4) We became really close in support group to a Catholic couple whose son died a few weeks after birth. He had not been baptized and that was a source of pain for them given their church’s doctrine. Just as we LDS might see the Catholic doctrinal line dividing saved babies who had been baptized on one side and non-saved babies without baptism on the other – Just as we might see that line as somewhat arbitrary and capricious it was also apparent that our own LDS church doctrine had erected similar doctrinal lines.I have wondered – If my child had died after having taken a breath (thus triggering the comfort of the eternal family doctrine) AND if we had been living in another location (like perhaps Colorado or Arizona where we had lived before and felt so loved and supported by our Mormon communities) – If that had been the case, perhaps I would have had a faith affirming experience. The death might still have happened but perhaps all of my sources of comfort would have been LDS and this might have led to a rebuilt assumptive world with an even fiercer loyalty to the LDS church.
However, that is not exactly your question. I think you are asking why I might feel that comforting and revelatory experience while others do not.
I sometimes find it helpful to think of my Faith Crisis and related Assumptive World Collapse as a system crash and reboot procedure. I had built my world on my windows operating system/Conscious mind/Assumptive world. I did not think that there was anything outside of windows and the logical and rational thought patterns that I had developed. When the operating system crashed it was jarring. During the “reboot procedure” I felt compelled forward through certain steps that I did not choose. It felt odd, like my body/subconscious mind/id was excreting an unusual amount of overt control. Later, when I read about assumptive world collapses this felt somewhat reassuring – like my body had an emergency reboot procedure and knew what to do.
Having become aware of a part of myself outside of my conscious mind, I believe that this subconscious or id may have supplied the feelings of comfort, love, and acceptance in my moment of need. It seems that most individuals that receive such “personal revelation” or God experience report having felt similar feeling of overwhelming love and acceptance. Maybe there is part of my id that was creaming “Emergency! emergency! break the glass! trigger the endorphins!”
Long story short, I choose to believe that this feeling came from God and taught me something important about my place in the universe. However, If it came from God then why wouldn’t God reach out to all of his children when they are at a breaking point? I do not have an answer for that.
Interesting thoughts Roy. I wonder if the situations were different, if you would have had a faith building experience. Interesting questions. Probably. Probably different things would have factored into your reaction, right?
Perhaps that is why that one big thing triggered your crisis. Perhaps we create our crises. We handle many situations just fine and life goes along. Until we bump up against the thing that is our personal test … And we have to work through it.
And God let’s those things teach us.
They become personal. Not necessarily crafted by God for us…just enough things will be thrown at us in life that eventually we get hit by the things we can’t easily dismiss.
It reveals something about us that is already inside us prior to the test. Not the situation itself. Just the combination of life events and our inner state of being. Eventually we will all stumble across our own Abrahamic-like test of faith and sacrifice.
Heber13 wrote:
…Perhaps that is why that one big thing triggered your crisis. Perhaps we create our crises. We handle many situations just fine and life goes along. Until we bump up against the thing that is our personal test … And we have to work through it.And God let’s those things teach us.
Or breaks us.
When my major challenges come along, my reaction is usually ANGER, RAGE & the desire for revenge. When I migrate to the darkside, nothing
spiritual can penetrate. That was my big takeaway. As time passed, I began to talk to people again. Maybe it was a desire to vent or the
desire to see how other people handled their challenges in life. Either way, I slowly came out of it.
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