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My 15 yr old daughter asked me yesterday if I would read this part of the Joseph Smith History in the PoGP:
Quote:JSH 1:6 For, notwithstanding the great love which the converts to these different faiths expressed at the time of their conversion, and the great zeal manifested by the respective clergy, who were active in getting up and promoting this extraordinary scene of religious feeling, in order to have everybody converted, as they were pleased to call it, let them join what sect they pleased; yet when the converts began to file off, some to one party and some to another,
it was seen that the seemingly good feelings of both the priests and the converts were more pretended than real; for a scene of great confusion and bad feeling ensued—priest contending against priest, and convert against convert; so that all their good feelings one for another, if they ever had any, were entirely lost in a strife of words and a contest about opinions.
When I finished reading it, she asked me, “Doesn’t this pretty much describe a lot of people in our church? Would God have told Joseph to join our church, or would he still have to start a new church?”Ok, let’s role play…you are now supposed to be your little girl’s wise old man…what do you say to her sincere question?
Sheesh. Here’s my initial two thoughts:
(1) If we adhere to the 13 articles of faith, then a decent argument can be made that Joseph would still be joining the LDS Church.
(2) People are still people, whether they belong to one church or another —- even if one of those Churches is more ‘true’ than the others.
As for wisdom, it can be very tough to come by. Best of luck to you, H-13!!
HiJolly
Oh, out of the mouths of children! I love it! I would probably say something like…”YOU are so right, dear! There are many that live their lives like others want them to, rather than how they feel they should themselves. We all need to grow up someday, and I think part of that means that we need to learn for ourselves how we need to live authentically. As we all grow up, we move from depending on what our parents provide for us to what we learn is the best path for us to take. It’s different for each of us, and I hope YOU will find it as you mature too…nothing will make me happier than for you to find your unique path!”
(But that’s just me…)
Well, there are certain problems JS would have run up against – polygamy being one of them. He would have also found that young people couldn’t assume much of a leadership position in the church, although he would have been sent off on a mission. I think there is one reason why he wouldn’t have fitted well into today”s church… he was controversial. Since GBH, the focus has been toeards mainstreaming, and having good relations with the neighbors. A lot of what JS did and said wouldn’t go down well in some quarters, including the modern church.
By the way, I always find it ironic that we’re told the stuff about one true church, and that splitting off churches is a sign of apostasy. Isn’t this exactly what happened to Mormonism? There are at least thirty Mormon churches, some of them pretty tiny, but some with membership of hundreds, or thousands. The CoC is pretty large.
Quote:I always find it ironic that we’re told the stuff about one true church, and that splitting off churches is a sign of apostasy. Isn’t this exactly what happened to Mormonism?
And it’s the foundation of Christianity. After all, Jesus was a Jew. In the words of one modern rabbi, Jesus was a “bad Jew.”
What would I say to your daughter? This quote was what JS had observed about the churches – that their goodwill was a pretense and they were really at odds with each other. And that observation may be true of individuals in or out of any organization. But the instruction he was given was not to join any of them. In JS: H 1:19 it says, “I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” That lists out why those churches were apostate, and those are all reasons that are about individuals. The real distinction between “those churches” and the church JS founded is the concept of power or authority. JS wasn’t, BTW, contemplating joining Catholicism (another authority religion); he was looking into the local Protestant sects. Mormonism is in this respect much more like Catholicism than Protestantism. But do some individuals have hearts that are far from God? Sure. Is that the norm? I don’t think so.
I don’t see Jesus as a bad Jew, just one with a very different interpretation. There were a number of different camps in early Judaism, and Jesus admired the spirit, whereas the Pharisees admired the letter of the law. Unfortunately the lawyers took over Judaism and turned it into the complex maze it is today. The whole Kabbalah thing (note, not the Madonna thing, which is NOT Kabbalah) was a form of escapism from the pedantry and hair splitting inherent in Judaism. Sam, I think Hawk is pointing out that Jesus was a bad Jew in the eyes of the Jewish rabbi – and the leading Jews of his time – and even many of the first disciples who originally followed him but eventually left. Fwiw, I don’t think Joseph would fit in in our church today – and I don’t think Pres. Hinckley or Pres. Monson would have fit in at Joseph’s time (as, I believe, I probably wouldn’t have). I’m ok with the LDS Church changing – and with a Prophet of one time being out of place in a different time. I think that’s inevitable.
At least, I hope it is.
It’s interesting to look at Joseph Smith, but let’s pick some other prophets. How would Moses fit in our day? Abraham, Joseph, Elijah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah? Matthew, Mark, Paul? Constantine? Would Pope Urban recognize Pope Paul II or even the current pope? Would Luther join the Lutheran Church? Would Henry 8th join the Episcopal or Anglican church?
All churches change with the times.
In short, joining the LDS Church (or perhaps any church, for that matter) would not likely be a very Joseph-Smithian thing to do. Ray, my point was that the “badness” is only from the legalistic view of Judaism, which has managed to take over everything. Well not quite everything – google the Karaites – but still, I think Jesus represented a valid form of Judaism. Even a lot of the stuff about Jesus which is unjewish may have been added later. No argument, Sam – probably from Hawk, as well. 
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