Would God prompt someone to leave or not join his church?

[Anonymous]

I love Staylds and I love the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, even if the church has changed a lot over the years. I still have a strong testimony of the church. In my belief change, I believe now that God would prompt someone to leave his church or not join it. What are your feelings on this?

[Anonymous]

i believe the answer is yes. i have seen it.

taking a believing perspective, there is scriptural precedent (john 10) for it. there are those who were and are not ordained to the church in this life, thus we need to understand that the church is not for everyone, but only those, “the valiant” from the premortal existence, who are attuned to the spirit as embodied in this church. this teaching was taught with greater enthusiasm prior to 1978, and was the focus of Alvin R Dyer’s “Challenging and Testifying Missionary“. While the doctrinal basis of premortal valiance as a prerequisite for church membership no longer is actively taught, Dyer’s technique, to aggressively challenge toward baptism, is still the modus operandi of the mission program, and those who are “supposed to be members” will heed the challenge.

I do not quite align with the Dyer perpective, although it has some merit, if we keep the racial interpretation out of it. In coming to my own conclusion on this important question, I find that I do not believe three implied concepts in your question.

first, does a unified, personal “god” exist as a single consciousness that would express will in the matter? Joseph Smith had another view: “God is a man, that is the great secret.” He taught of a plurality of gods, and while it is true that in this world he taught there is “to us, but one god”, he hadn’t completed his understanding of what “the gods” meant by the time he was martyred. he also taught that god expresses through the mind and heart, meaning that the promptings we get as to what to do with our lives are deeply personal: the “holy spirit”.

second, “his”. if the god that prompts us as to the direction in our lives is a deeply personal, and if a god is a hu”man” who is at one with the power of god, then does gender matter? we see in the temple that god sends messengers to adam and eve… who is to say that the messenger of the holy spirit talking to a woman through her mind and heart must be a man? our christian theology allows for the holy spirit to be a personage of god, without any declaration of gender.

third, “his church”. is there but one true church for everyone? I met an elderly woman in India who worked closely and individually with Mother Teresa. She told me of the spiritual power of this great saint– the idea that Mother Teresa would be anything but a catholic is unfathomable–it does not compute. I have seen, over and over, that the devout members of the various faiths have everything we have at our best, and no more would change religions than our most TBM would. While all religion points to a higher spiritual awareness, and i will grant that some do so better than others, the truth is that organized religion is largely a tribal, cultural, and political construct.

i think trying to fit everyone into the cultural artifact of mormonism is a misplaced priority. we offer a path to spiritual enlightenment, a very good path, maybe even uniquely good, but it isn’t for everyone. some of the cultural artifacts in mormonism are nonstarters for those in other tribes and cultures. for example, the book of mormon and D&C teach of American Exceptionalism to a degree that cannot be accepted by the majority of the world. this is but one example. i have come to the conclusion that our missionary efforts would be better placed in helping people become better at being true to the faith they have regardless of what religion they hold true, offering a “more excellent way”, perhaps, to those who feel the call to join the Church.

so yes, a missionary, acting under and being one with the spirit, might well encourage a person in a very supportive nonmormon family to not join the church. likewise, the same inspired missionary might also counsel a recent convert to leave the church and reunite with his loved ones, if that convert has lost his family and culture by joining the church. if such a missionary is truly one with the spirit, is he — or she — not “god” at that moment?

Jesus said, “ye are gods”, to whom the Word of YHWH came.

[Anonymous]

I absolutely know this to be true! If you read my intro, that happened when I was in a fast and testimony meeting praying about why my husband never got a witness of the BofM or church. I heard a voice in my head tell me three times, “Why don’t you go visit that 7th Day Aventist church down the street.”! We did and because of the pastor there and that church we learned some important things there that God wanted us to learn. I also learned that God works through all churches and they are all His people. We were prompted to return to the lds church for 10 years after that and then the Lord led us to the Nazarene church we have attended the past two years. If God tells us to return to the lds church sometime again, we would.

[Anonymous]

Absolutely, if that is defined as the LDS Church; probably not, if that is defined as where God wants each person to be at that time in life.

I also agree with wayfarer’s emphasis on the principle that we are gods and children of God – and that we need to learn to function as gods of our own spheres (“agents unto ourselves”, as the Book of Mormon says). From that perspective, we are responsible for choosing to do whatever and be whatever brings us closer to our own best “I am”.

I served my mission nearly 30 years ago, and I believe even then it wasn’t my job to convert everyone. Rather, I believed it was my job to teach what the LDS Church teaches (the concepts in the lessons, not the cultural deviations) and see to whom it “stuck” – to find people who would say, in essence, “I get it, and I want it.” If anyone is interested, I wrote the following back in 2008 about that:

“The Foundation of Joy” (http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2008/12/foundation-of-joy.html)

As a specific example, I’ve said for a long time that I admire GREATLY gay members who stay – but I also don’t blame any gay member who leaves. We ask SO much of our gay brothers and sisters, and it simply isn’t good or healthy for some of them to stay (while it is for others). That isn’t as much an issue of eternal doctrine, imo, as it is an issue of culture and limited light and knowledge – but that doesn’t lessen the difficulty they face in staying LDS. In many ways, they are the current equivalent to Black Mormons prior to 1978: I admire GREATLY those who stayed despite our institutional and individual stupidity, but I certainly can’t blame those who left or never joined – and I certainly can accept that God would prompt or tell them explicitly to leave or not to join in the first place.

[Anonymous]

Yes, I think that there are religions that are better fits for different people. Also, being a Mormon would keep people from doing important things.

Mother Teresa surely would not have been able to do all the good she did if she had been Mormon.

Dr. Martin Luther King would not have been an effective leader as a Mormon.

A critical element of the three witnesses testimony is that they left the church and still never denied their testimony. If they had remained in the church their testimony wouldn’t have been so significant.

[Anonymous]

I completely agree. I have heard too many stories of this to believe otherwise (including Bridget’s here). Yet, for me, I also know it’s the right place, definitely better than the alternatives. A great analogy I have heard for this is running software on different operating systems. You can’t run Windows on a Mac. Maybe Windows is great for 80% of homes, but not all. Try to use it on the wrong computer, and you could destroy it. (That technical explanation is over my pay grade, but hopefully you get the point).

[Anonymous]

Very good points. I used to think the opposite, before my faith crisis. When I wanted to remove my membership from the church my dad told me I would lose the light. In my case and others, probably. In others, I don’t think so. Again, very good points.

[Anonymous]

I can think of several hypothetical situations where someone is more at peace with themselves and able to be more healthy spiritually not being a member of the church in its current form with the current leadership, and therefore a loving Heavenly Father would be focusing more on His mission for His children than simply on church membership. That makes sense to me. I think that is why we need personal revelation.

Ilovechrist77 wrote:

my dad told me I would lose the light.

This is an interesting factor you bring up. Would doing so “lose the light”? Would your mind become darkened to things of the spirit?

I think realistically, you should realize it will likely change you if you feel God prompts you to leave the church. If Stage 3 meant you see light a certain way from your perspective…and you move outside of the stage 3 group where everyone talks about that light a certain way…then in a way…you might change your perspectives and see things and talk about some things differently than when you were in the church. I think that is a natural consequence of moving.

I think this is why many people have tension and feel a need to StayLDS. Because leaving creates change to how you see things and the relationships with others may be impacted. But how they describe you is more about them and their perspective than really if you have lost any spirituality or closeness to God (which is a personal thing). Its just a way people describe things in words, like when I say a light bulb went off in my head…it just refers to ideas and experiences…not physical light. That’s my opinion, after being told by a few people my light has dimmed, which has caused me to seek inwardly and assess where I am at. I find it is more about those that are perceiving me from their point of view, than really anything about me and my spirit.

It doesn’t help me to try to defend myself, “Hey, I still have light…I’m lighted…I swear!”

Nah, instead, I will just be me, and let my light shine, and others can see it or criticize it or call it dark…that is their agency. I accept the idea that is like the prism in my avatar, we see the light differently from different points of view…that doesn’t make your view right and my view wrong…just different perspectives that are more meaningful than everyone having to see one shade or else all other shades are “dark”.

But I would consider what your dad told you. Leaving the church can have consequences and impact relationships. What most people don’t consider is that staying in the church will have consequences and may impact relationships. You don’t get a choice for no hurt and no pain. You just get a choice on what kind you prefer. I stay LDS until God shows me another path better suited for me.

[Anonymous]

If God wanted the world to be different, then He should make it different. Otherwise, I must assume it’s functioning as intended. I extend that to most things in our life experience. It would be VERY easy for God to clear this whole religion question up — really really simple. He could appear to everyone and answer all the questions.

That hasn’t happened, so I have to assume the Big Guy’s okay with a little diversity of opinion and serving different needs down here.

I don’t think everyone is destined to be a member of the LDS Church, or stay in it. That’s OK. People should follow the Spirit and their own heart to the adventures that will make their life rewarding.

That being said, I think a LOT more people could be members, and a lot more members who transition in their faith could stay.

[Anonymous]

Brian Johnston wrote:

If God wanted the world to be different, then He should make it different. Otherwise, I must assume it’s functioning as intended. I extend that to most things in our life experience. It would be VERY easy for God to clear this whole religion question up — really really simple. He could appear to everyone and answer all the questions.

That hasn’t happened, so I have to assume the Big Guy’s okay with a little diversity of opinion and serving different needs down here.

I don’t think everyone is destined to be a member of the LDS Church, or stay in it. That’s OK. People should follow the Spirit and their own heart to the adventures that will make their life rewarding.

That being said, I think a LOT more people could be members, and a lot more members who transition in their faith could stay.

Brian, I couldn’t agree more. I just want you to know that I really connect to a lot of your comments and appreciated all the work that you monitors do. You commented on a recent post that some times all the pain we express on this board gets to you and I realize that must be hard seeing how you guys have been doing this for years and you have your own issues too. I just want to says thanks.

[Anonymous]

hawkgrrrl wrote:

A great analogy I have heard for this is running software on different operating systems. You can’t run Windows on a Mac. Maybe Windows is great for 80% of homes, but not all. Try to use it on the wrong computer, and you could destroy it.

Um, actually . . . you can run Windows on a Mac. It has a Windows Emulator that can run any software written for different Windows versions depending on which one you want to run. It may not run as well or as fast, but the Mac processor knows what to do with it. However, the same isn’t true for running Mac on Windows – no way currently exists to run Mac software on Windows.

I know, I know. I just HAD to go and ruin your analogy! :silent:

Brian Johnston wrote:

It would be VERY easy for God to clear this whole religion question up — really really simple. He could appear to everyone and answer all the questions.

Isn’t this the whole concept behind the 2nd Coming? I’ve often wondered why the world is o.k. being messed up as it it now, still maintaining our currently understood level of “free agency” and having faith in things “unseen” that are real, yet after the 2nd Coming when the world will be “filled with knowledge of the Lord” and after every knee has bowed and tongue confessed that Jesus is the Christ, for them and everyone after them, it will be o.k. for them not to have the exact same types of knowledge and faith challenges that every other generation of us have had since the creation? That doesn’t seem too fair to me.

[Anonymous]

Rats! Shoulda checked Wikipedia or something.

[Anonymous]

Well, God continues to work in mysterious ways in my life. As many of you know from my introduction and posting on staylds, that God has led my husband and I to different churches at various times in our lives. First, it was to a 7th Day Adventist church which we stayed in for two years. Then we felt led back to the LDS church.

When we moved to Florida, 2 and a half years ago, I was still semi-active in the lds church even though my husband and children had already left the church. Some of you may remember that we did not have a good experience with the new bishop here in Florida and we felt led to a Nazarene church here in Port Orange. Well, about 2 months ago I had a shocking experience with the interim pastor of the Nazarene church. After a Wed. night Nazarene Bible study class my husband and I attended, the interim Pastor called me into his office. He, (in a unchristian-like) spirit chastened me for posting some positive things about Mormons and Homosexuals on my facebook. I have many friends from the Nazarene church on my facebook and apparently some were upset about some of my posts and sent those posts to this pastor. This pastor showed me the emails these members had sent him about my posts in regards to “Circling the Wagons” conferences of Mormons who support gays (not necessarily homosexuality) and how I wanted a conference like that at “New Church Family” church (which he and others interpreted as being the Nazarene church). New Church Family is a Christian gay affirming church in Daytona Beach that I have friends in. Most of you know I have a gay son and I do gay ministries in which I reach out to gays in love. Even though the Bible and many churches believe homosexual activity is wrong, we should support homosexuals and reach out to them in love.

The pastor said that he talked to the higher ups at the Nazerene church about my husband and I and that we could never say anything about positive about the Mormon cult church or homosexuals on facebook again (because I have Nazarene friends who can see those posts on facebook and that is influencing his members) or in their church. If we do, we would not be allowed through their front door again. He showed me what he had printed off about the Mormon church appointing a openly gay man (Mitch Mayne a good friend of mine) in their bishopric and said that was wrong and a sin even though this man is celibate. He also showed me an article about John Dehlin who started “Circling the Wagons” and said that he was an evil Mormon and support homosexuality. He said that we would never be allowed to teach or participate in the Nazarene church if we stayed because of our beliefs in support of anything Mormon or Homosexual. Then he ended the meeting with some kind of prayer about the devil not getting a hold in their congregation because of what we believed.

When I came out of that meeting with this pastor, I was so traumatized and my husband could see it. I told him what had happened and my husband was very upset. He dropped me off at the house and went back to talk to this pastor. He told this pastor that he should have talked to me with him there. My husband told him that he was a Pharisee and had a mean temper. The pastor told my husband, it was not up for discussion and that this was the church doctrine. My husband told him then that we would not be back. Well, what happened became news all over the church and many of our Nazarene friends were very upset with this pastor and called us in support. Nevertheless, I could no longer feel like I could be a part of this church and began visiting other churches close to our home. We even tried visiting our lds ward again a few times but were treated like we were not wanted back because we had doubts and questions that might infect the other members. Also, there was little spirit in the meetings and more like a corporate business. After many tears and prayers, God led us to the United Church of Christ in Port Orange which is only 3 minutes from our house.

Not only were the people there super friendly, the Pastor had a great sense of humor and gave wonderful sermons. The choir and music leader were fantastic and there was such a good spirit there. I got a chance to talk to the assistant pastor, who teaches our Sunday School class, right after church yesterday. She is a great teacher and it was good and lively open discussion. I was able to share with her what happened at the Nazarene church and she was the perfect person for me to talk to. She has a lesbian daughter and she used to live in Salt Lake and has many Mormon friends. She thinks highly of them and likes many things in their faith. She told me that this UCC is gay affirming but this congregation is not big on being ‘out’ about that because they just want to be seen as an all encompassing church instead. She said there are two gay couple families in the congregation and that her daughter attends regularly and they all feel very welcomed. She said that my gay son and his partner would be very welcomed anytime. I liked a slogan I saw on a poster there before I walked out: “Our faith is 2000 years old, but our thinking isn’t”! My husband and I felt such peace when we left and like we had found a new home.

Who knows who we will meet and become friends with at this church or what God will do with my book there to help others. I just know that I have to feel safe and accepted for my Mormon background and for supporting LGBT’s.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the update Bridget. I’m glad to hear from you – though I am sorry for what happened in the Nazarene community.

I too have been participating at other churches (in addition to the LDS). I’ve been going to some presentations by the 7th Day Adventists and the stuff they have is pretty compelling. Of course in order to follow it you must read the bible with a certain perspective and then do mental gymnastics with the conflicting verses. These contradictions are “caused by” mispunctuation, mistranslation, even that biblical figures sometimes did and said things that were limited in perspective and not exactly “gospel truth.” But I must ask – if the Bible is so unclear or corrupted, how can we settle issues of doctrine by appealing to the bible alone? Sound familiar? Like from the JS story?

Anyway, the SDA’s have many similarities to LDS both in history and culture. They have been and still are mistreated for their beliefs and they are a close knit community. In the end they encouraged DW and me to follow God and not look back remembering what happened to Lot’s wife. I felt moved, I want to “commit” to God – I want to follow truth and not let the cares of the world hold me back – the difficulty lies in the details. In the end, the pastor asked me what I had thought and I pointed out how I empathize with Lot’s wife. She had married daughters and possibly grandchildren in Sodom.

So my point is that I would be very drawn to a turn-key belief system if only I could immerse myself in that belief. If only I could convince myself that what day we worship on really matters to God and that the end is soon coming where the true saints will be vindicated – then I could again experience the type of solidarity that comes from being in lock step with a group.

Because I am so “individual” with my Mormon upbringing and other associated baggage. I believe that I would be a difficult case for any religion to assimilate. And if they can’t assimilate me, what is wrong? Am I dangerous?

So I understand those that get born again and totally turn their back on the LDS faith as if they have just been rescued by a demonic cult. I also understand those like Lot’s wife that can’t quite turn away from the people and memories that they might be leaving behind and live with a divided heart. I understand those (like me) that continue to live and practice in forms that are no longer authentically their own for the sake of maintaining important relationships. All these paths are valid, none are particularly easy.

I am sorry that some in the Nazarene church felt that you were too different to continue as one of them. It sounds like the United Church of Christ is accepting enough of your specific experience set to make for a good fit. I feel that you are fortunate that whatever happens, you and your husband are on this path together. I hope it proves to be a path of love and acceptance.

[Anonymous]

Thank you Roy…I appreciate what you wrote.

[Author]

Posts