Would Jesus Own a Shopping Mall?

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

m&g, I agree with that completely – but I am much more concerned about it at the local level. I believe strongly we must stop entertatining ourselves in our ward and branch activities and start serving in the community without any expectation of conversion. Once we start serving simply for the love of people and a sincere desire to help them, with no ulterior motives . . .

I agree with you, Ray, especially about serving for the sake of it and without expectation

There are a couple of issues I see regarding community outreach by local congregations. First, some local leaders are afraid to do anything for fear of violating handbook instructions.

Can you imagine an LDS church being used once a week for narc anon meetings? No. We don’t allow our buildings to be used like this. We won’t even let homeschool groups made up of our own members use the building. Other churches routinely host MOPS (mothers of preschoolers) or AA meetings, or host meals. The most I’ve seen our church do is a blood drive (nary a non-member in sight) or a merit badge clinic (again, virtually all LDS boys). Those building guidelines come from SLC. Just hosting an ESL class once a week in our church buildings would help so many people…

Can you imagine a huge rummage sale with proceeds donated to a local shelter? No. We might violate the Church’s tax-exempt status. Other churches in our area host fish frys or barbeques and sell plates to raise money for charitable purposes. They do all kinds of fundraisers so that they can contribute in meaningful ways to the community. They host events sponsored by outside charities like Toys for Tots or Operation Christmas Child. Again, fundraising rules come from SLC.

So the projects we do get involved with tap the same well, our own ward members, over and over and over again and frankly, aren’t personally rewarding enough to foster the proper motivation to which you alluded.

[Anonymous]

The church separates its business income and assets from its religious income and assets in order to keep from having to pay taxes on its religious income and assets. If it treated everything as the same pot of money and used tithing to fund something like the CC project, it would have to pay taxes on all of its income and assets – which would be a staggering total amount of tithing money going to the government. I certainly don’t want that.

The only other option would be to divest itself completely of its business income and assets, and I don’t want that to happen – even as I would like to see more development of hospitals, shelters, farms, etc. that would be aid-focused. My unease about the CC project would disappear completely if I knew about lots more of those types of investments, as well.

[Anonymous]

I’m with you Ray, I don’t think there is anything wrong with investing wisely.

I’m more frustrated with what we could be doing but aren’t than with what we are doing in City Creek.

[Anonymous]

I don’t know how to copy or quote here, so I will just add to Mercy and Ray’s conversation. I happen to have the assignment for community service. I, too, struggle with the mall. I have also seen the challenge that the same leadership people are the only ones who sign-up to attend the events. I understand why I’ve been in leadership, so it’s no surprise. But I am grateful for the small events that get the ward has been involved with. Last summer we renovated, repainted, and refurbished two families rooms at our local shelter. At Christmas we stuffed 90 stockings with gifts, mittens, hats, treats, hygiene items and so on. Everyone was really generous. The youth put together 40 Easter baskets for kids in two shelters.

I know it can’t rival a mall, and I really do wish the church had built water wells in barren lands, or mobile temples for distant countries, but I am glad to watch a small corner of the world strive for Zion. We are planning to repeat the same activities this year.

[Anonymous]

doug wrote:

SilentDawning wrote:

It is important to say “no tithing funds were invested” to defray criticism.

I understand that that is the purpose, but WHY does that defray criticism? WHY SHOULD IT MATTER? What is the meaning behind the claim? What are they intending to convey? Is it written somewhere that tithing funds cannot be used for community development, and so “no tithing funds were used” means “we’re playing by the rules”? Or is is merely a political statement intended to mollify those who equate “no tithing funds were used” with “oh, good, my sacred contributions to the Lord are being wisely shepherded”?

A dollar that belongs to the church is a dollar that belongs to the church, no matter where it came from.

I agree with everything Doug said — the fact that no tithing funds were used is a non-starter for me. The members are the financial wealth engine of the Church, and at some point in our history, funded those businesses. So, to say no recent tithing funds were used is a pretty thin argument.

Also, similar thin arguments were proposed by SLC leaders when people criticized them about how wealthy the Church is. GBH said the most of our wealth is in our buildings which are “costly to maintain”. But he ignores the fact that buildings provide a place for members to meet, who then give a lot of money in tithing as a result of the teaching and training that goes on inside those walls. GBH describes the Church’s wealth as based in COST CENTERS (buildings) when really, they are PROFIT CENTERS since each building facilitates the production of revenue from the members. He left the revenue component out of the whole equation, which I felt was misleading with my newly acquired accounting lens.

For much of the history of the Church, the buildings appreciate in value (perhaps not since the bubble), but certainly true in the vast majority of the Church’s history. So, he also ignores the capital appreciation of those real estate assets. I honestly felt he picked and choosed those aspects of the financials that would quell the detractors the most, ignoring those aspects of the financials that show the Church is quite an effective wealth-creation machine.

[Anonymous]

mom3 wrote:

I am grateful for the small events that the ward has been involved with. Last summer we renovated, repainted, and refurbished two families’ rooms at our local shelter. At Christmas we stuffed 90 stockings with gifts, mittens, hats, treats, hygiene items and so on. Everyone was really generous. The youth put together 40 Easter baskets for kids in two shelters.

Thank you Mom3, I am inspired to “go and do likewise.” It really is interesting how different various areas/wards can be. My family has attended a neighboring ward since the New Year and it has made such a difference. The old ward felt like a slow death. I have even stopped insisting on wearing colored shirts to church. Once it became clear that my new ward family didn’t care what color of shirt I was wearing, my reason for wearing them evaporated. Mom3, Please continue to “fight the good fight,” you do make a difference and help people for the better.

[Anonymous]

Roy wrote:

…I have even stopped insisting on wearing colored shirts to church. Once it became clear that my new ward family didn’t care what color of shirt I was wearing, my reason for wearing them evaporated. …

Oh my god.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for your comments.

mercyngrace wrote:

I think investing in a mall to raise funds, even if they are used for humanitarian purposes, is emblematic of what I’ve seen throughout the church.

We think writing checks is the best way to serve.

It’s a very aloof service we typically offer and I think people would be more inclined to believe we’re Christian if we spent more time walking among the poor, diseased, and oppressed and visiting the infirm and incarcerated rather than just making business deals (or even making newborn kits from the safety of our own Relief Society rooms) and buying stuff to ship overseas. The Good Samaritan did both of these kinds of service.

Excellent points, Mercy. :thumbup:

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

m&g, I agree with that completely – but I am much more concerned about it at the local level. I believe strongly we must stop entertatining ourselves in our ward and branch activities and start serving in the community without any expectation of conversion. Once we start serving simply for the love of people amd a sincere desire to help them, with no ulterior motives . . .

This is what Jesus taught. :thumbup:

[Anonymous]

doug wrote:

Ray, the church has been effectively hiding its investments since they stopped disclosure of tithing records in 1959. I, personally, don’t have a problem with the church investing in the quality of the downtown SLC area. It actually makes a lot of sense to me. I do have a problem with the church making specious and disingenuous statements about the use of tithing monies to fund that investment, especially since those statements cannot be independently corroborated. Anyone who keeps a budget knows that it doesn’t really make a difference anyway what pot of money it came from. It’s all tithing. And why even make that claim in the first place if the expenditure has been approved at the highest levels? It seems like they are just trying to cover their collective behinds in case things go badly by engaing in what amounts to a deception. IMO, it shouldn’t really matter if tithing funds were used, and if it’s such a great idea to do it, they shouldn’t have any qualms about it either. And yes, I think there are many apt comparisons with the Wizard in this case (as well as in a lot of others).

Yes, all funds of the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints, come from donated sacred funds, given with the intent to do as Jesus would do, not as worldly business men would do.

The more I think about it, the more I think the Wizard of Oz is very fitting symbolism. 🙂

(They say the 3 aspects of spirituality are: Thought, Feeling & Will (Scarecrow got a brain, Tinman got a heart, & Lion got courage).

The man behind the curtain, pretending to be Oz (like God)… like leaders are put on pedestals as if they are God.

I am disgusted with how I’ve seen members justify this & place prophets’ bad decisions over God & Jesus’ teachings.

[Anonymous]

Mike wrote:

Some may say, “we live in a capitalist society & the strong should

survive over the weaker businesses”. For me, it doesn’t feel right if this is the attitude of the Church.

As many of you know, I’m trying to be active again in the Church. In the past, I was very open about my finances, my beliefs, my time,

my commitment, etc, to the leadership of the Church. That is going to change or I’m not going to be active. Just like the Church has rights, I do too. And I plan to exercise them. In the past, I think I looked to the Church for direction & salvation. I should be looking more to God & JC.

This is probably a “rehash” of what others have said.

I needed to write it out for me.

Thanks for the topic. Good stuff.

Mike from Milton.

Hi Mike,

I understand & agree that the “survival of the fittest” mentality is not Christ-like.

Yet, I hope that you remember that there are good people at church.

My dad knows it’s a crock & has known for a while, but he still goes to church (just Sacrament meeting) because he’s made friends & enjoys people there.

I still go to church, mostly for my kids, & because I have a calling.

The way I see it & explain to my kids, is that every organization is going to have problems, we just need to find what will help us, take the good & leave the bad. I constantly remind my kids of what is good & what is wrong, of what they’ve been taught, which also helps remind myself. 🙂

Maybe this is naive, but I do have a glimmer of hope that the people in the church will wake up & demand change & for the church to promote more Christlike behavior. We might be able to help in this, if we feel inspired that it would be best for us in our unique circumstances.

[Anonymous]

SamBee wrote:

It’s worth mentioning that in several parts of the world, the LDS church DOES disclose its finances. So why can’t it do so in America? Is it something to do with “the congress shall make law prohibiting the free practise of religion” bit of the constitution? (Or however it goes?)

Yeah, I read about how it’s different in other countries, where the church is not based.

In Mormon America, it is explained that the church finances became dangerously low and with threat of bankruptcy, the church then stopped disclosing financial reports.

Sometimes I wonder how closely related our government and religious institutions are… despite the “separation of church & state.”

[Anonymous]

Roy wrote:

Now to answer the original question. I do not believe that my understanding of Jesus would own a shopping mall…but then again I’m not entirely sure that he would belong to a church or organized religion.

Agreed, but I hadn’t thought of it that way before.

[Anonymous]

SilentDawning wrote:

I don’t think He would’ve either. I honestly think wonders could be done to invest more funds in making the experience of Church members better. Expanding LDS Social Services so people like my wife and I could get help when we had a problem with having children, support adoptive parents in defraying the cost of participating in adoptions, expand the use of funds to make local social events more enriching, and relieve the members of the onerous aspects of service, like chapel cleaning. I think a Church-owned moving service for all those members who need to be moved would also be a wonderful investment 😆

:thumbup: 😆

[Anonymous]

SilentDawning wrote:

I think a better discussion question would be “would the Savior own for-profit corporations”?

I like what Ghandi said — charitable organizations should not have corporations — they should only have as much as they need to fund their operations. Otherwise, they lose accountability to their members. If there is an organization which seems to avoid any overt accountability to their members, it’s ours.

:thumbup:

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