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Good points Featherina. You make a convincing argument for a scriptural mandate to care for the poor. I woudn’t feel comfortable quoting that less than 1% of church funds help the poor (it’s unverifiable and surely any number of church programs help the poor indirectly) but i would easily guestimate that the total is less than 33.3%. I also find it suspicious that the scripture you are referencing isn’t noted in the topical guide. Featherina wrote:…
Church leaders keep finances secret, but it is estimated that less than 1% of church funds go to help the poor:
http://www.salamandersociety.com/foyer/budget/ This is unacceptable & is why I no longer pay tithing to the church, but directly to those in need….
Yep. Me too. I would gladly pay my tithing, if the church would only be a little more transparent where the money is getting spent.
And you know, I don’t think the church is doing anything dishonest or immoral with the tithing funds….but once again, IMO, the “cover up” of not be transparent is probably worse than the crime.
I feel out of my element, defending the church so much… but Featherina, the goal of the church is not to feed every hungry person in the world. If it were, the church would have collapsed in utter failure by the end of summer, 1830. The goal of the church is to spread its gospel to every corner of the world. Along the way, the church has provided spiritual and fiscal aid to countless people. I’ve seen first-hand the good the the church can do simply by giving hope and a sense of purpose, where none existed before, regardless of any monetary aid. I’ve seen the care that members give to each other without dollars ever exchanging hands. The church PROVIDES for its own poor in very substantial ways, not all of which involve the church’s welfare system. I agree that if you want to make donations that will directly help feed the poor in Africa, then there are better ways to make that happen. But beware. You can find televangelists that have a program to feed a kid in some poor country. It only costs 1.70/day. But what they don’t tell you is that they collect a “passthrough” charge. It’s their fee for handling your money and getting the food into the hands of the child. You give 1.70/day, and they keep some percentage of it as passthrough. They are making money on the transaction between your giving, and the child’s need.
On the other hand, the LDS Church has built a temple in Ghana. It was not funded by tithing the members of Ghana, and it provides no monetary investment. In fact, the Ghana Temple is a money-loser for the church. Yet, I guarantee you that there are many members of the church in western Africa who count it as the most wonderful blessing in their lives.
Although I am an Atheist now, I have absolutely no regrets that I served as a missionary, because I saw the direct result of the good that the gospel brought to the lives of poor people. The church could never hope to gain financially from such people. But the church provided a light in their lives. I’m glad for them. I’m glad I was able to give them something, even if it’s now something I don’t believe in. If they still follow it, and it continues to help them, then… wonderful. The church uses its investments to further its own goals. While a person may disagree with the GOALS of the church, honestly, I have a hard time faulting the church for wisely investing money in order to increase its ability to achieve its goals.
Thanks for your comments, Roy, Cwald & Onmyown. Onmyonw,
Actually, the church’s purpose IS to help the poor…
“
And the Lord called his people Zion, because they were of one heart and one mind, and dwelt in righteousness; and there was no poor among them.”-Moses 7:18 “As members of Christ’s true church we must stand firm today & always for human rights & the dignity of man who is the literal offspring of God in the spirit.”-Spencer W. Kimball ***(Remember tens of thousands will die today, as they did yesterday, of preventable causes.)
“From the Book of Mormon, we learn that care of the poor is an obligation that we take upon ourselves at the time of baptism. (see Mosiah 18:8-10)… Ours is not to judge; ours is a covenantal obligation to care for the poor & the needy.”-Russel M. Nelson “It has always been a cardinal teaching with the Latter-day Saints that a religion that has not the power to save people temporally & make them prosperous & happy here cannot be depended upon to save them spiritually & to exalt them in the life to come.”-Joseph F. Smith “Scriptures teach us that the poor – especially widows, orphans, & strangers – have long been the concern of God & the godly… Few, if any, of the Lord’s intructions are stated more often, or given greater emphasis than the commandment to care for the poor and the needy.”(See D&C 35, 42:30-31, 44:6, 56:16) -Russel M. Nelson “It has always been the disposition of the true disciples of Christ, as they reached higher degress of spirituality, to look after the needy.”-J. Richard Clarke “We have a keen responsibility to care for the poor & the needy. Welfare is only encompassed or restricted by our vision and by our understanding & by our inspiration.”-Thomas S. Monson “Welfare Service is nothing more nor less than the gospel in action.”-Spencer W. Kimball Moreover, Jesus taught that the 2 greatest commandments are to love God & love our neighbors as ourselves…
“on these 2 commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”-Matt 22:40 When asked who neighbor is, Jesus taught the parable of the good Samaritan, who did not preach his religion to the dying man, but HELPED him. -Luke 10
“Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these, ye have done it unto me…Inasmuch as ye have NOT done it unto one of the least of these, ye have NOT done it unto me.”
– Matt 25:40,45 Featherina, I appreciate you references, and I agree with every one of them, but I could come up with an equal number of references to argue that the purpose of the church is to keep the sabbath day holy. You are talking about characteristic behaviors, rather than the purpose for the existence of the church.
In fact, the purpose of the church, according to the church itself, is to 1) proclaim the gospel, 2) perfect the saints, 3) redeem the dead. The church primarily spends its money, including money gained through investments, on those stated goals.
In addition, I believe that the church and its people do a lot of good in the world, more than most, and far more than you are giving credit.
For example, according to this report:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/jan/14/haiti-quake-aid-pledges-country-donations#data and this article:
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700009189/Mormon-church-provided-425M-in-Haiti-relief.html The LDS church provided more in disaster relief to Haiti than the countries of Germany, France, Italy, and Switzerland, combined.
But, as I said earlier, the church does far more in non-dollar-amount support for the poor, in the form of education, donated labor from local ward members, and spiritual support.
I know you are passionate about this, Featherina, but I want to make a few points crystal clear – but also emphasize that this comment is NOT about you, directly. Please understand that. 1) We do NOT provide links to anti-Mormon sites here, no matter how good any particular point on it is. We just don’t do that here. I left the claim from the site to which you linked, because I wanted to address it, but I removed the link itself. The site is blatantly and virulently anti-Mormon.
2) The numbers quoted about less than 1% of the Church’s funds being used to help the poor are bogus, twisted, biased and flat-out wrong – even assuming the numbers in the link actually are accurate. It’s a common anti-Mormon tactic to take two totally different things and compare them as if they were related – all the while ignoring real numbers that actually are related. Let me explain:
The numbers are estimated tithing money and reported humanitarian aid.
a)
Tithing funds DO help the poor in multiple ways: providing churches in which to meet, funds to operate the wards and branches that meet in those churches, temples, institutions of higher learning, etc. The fact that the Church-administered colleges are ridiculously cheap (and I mean abso-stinking-lutely cheap in comparison to other comparable institutions) makes them affordable to poor members – and that solves future poverty more directly and efficiently than just about anything else possibly could.b) The numbers totally ignore Fast Offering funds (plus the costs associated with purchasing, building and maintaining Bishop’s storehouses, ranches, farms, orchards, etc. to provide goods within the welfare system of the Church) – money that explicitly is used to help the poor, both inside and outside the Church.
The total Fast Offering funds alone are staggering – literally dwarfing the humanitarian funds on their own– and the anti-Mormons who construct the numbers used in the link you provided know it and choose intentionally to ignore it. c) There is so much more detail I could give, but if ONLY those funds that I have identified above are counted, the info in the link you provided would be radically different – but it would destroy the false argument the anti-Mormons who use it are promulgating, so the “correct” numbers are ignored and the twisted, focused, ignorant argument is presented instead.
I am being very direct and blunt in my choice of wording, because I’ve talked about this with multiple professional anti-Mormons – and every single one who has stayed with it has admitted exactly what I’ve laid out above, but not one of them has stopped using the argument.
One of them at least was honest enough to tell me that he would keep using it for a very simple reason: it sounds compelling, plays on existing biases and almost nobody realizes how twisted it is.He firmly believed he was doing the right thing by lying so knowingly. 3) The Church isn’t robbing the poor, any more than Jesus robbed the widow who gave her mite. He condemned the rich man for giving relatively little, but he didn’t say one thing about how the widow shouldn’t have paid her mite. In fact, he commended her for her sacrifice and said she would be blessed for it. I was raised poor, and my parents paid tithing in the midst of their poverty. They weren’t robbed in any way. I understand people not paying tithing for various reasons, but it’s not theft. Period.
4) Honestly, it’s next to impossible to read the parable of the talents, parse the actual words and say it’s not about increasing what God has given – unless it’s read with the intent to reach a different conclusion. Good parables allow for different conclusions, but saying that particular one obviously is about sharing and not about increasing (and especially saying anything but that conclusion is ridiculous) is . . . I’ll just say it’s a stretch.
This is an excellent opportunity to discuss an important subject, but we won’t do it properly by throwing out intentionally distorted numbers from anti-Mormon sites and making scathing, sweeping accusations about the payment of tithing.
OnOwnNow, I understand that the church doesn’t apply all of those quotes, but it is the ideal, as is the 4th mission statement, recently added (in theory):
Caring for the poor and the needy.
Ray,
I know that the members give & give & give – I’m a member & I’ve given to the point where it’s hurt – me & my family.
I also am aware that the church does do good – that higher education is extremely important.
Yet, I am more aware that 1/3 of TITHES are supposed to be given to the poor, & they are not. -Deut 14:28-29
I’m also aware that LDS leaders purposefully left out that scripture when you search for tithing in lds bible indexes & bible dictionaries.
What is the greatest gift we have? What is the greatest commandments? Is it money or based on accumulating money? No. Our greatest gift is the ability to love. The greatest commandments are based on love – loving God & others as ourselves & as we love others, we love God. As we don’t love others, we don’t love God, especially in regard to temporal needs as mentioned in the parable of the good Samaritan. The parable of the talents, is not about compound interest & economics. Before that parable, Jesus taught about the 10 virgins being prepared with oil – seeing the big picture & prioritizing what’s most important… Then the parable of the talents – where one did nothing but kept the talent (ability to love) to himself. Then after that, Jesus taught about dividing the sheep from the goats… & how those who care for the temporal needs of others is like caring for his temporal needs, & those who neglect to care for others when they are in need, is like neglecting him when he’s in neeed.
“Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these, ye have done it unto me…
“Inasmuch as ye have NOT done it unto one of the least of these, ye have NOT done it unto me.” -Matt 25:40,45
Today, tens of thousands will die from preventable causes.
I can only do so much, but together (legions/religion) – we can do more, & that is 1/3 of the purpose of tithing as explained in Deut 14:28-29.
I like your sig, Ray.
It reminds me that when we are children, our gods are our parents.
When I got older, I longed for parental figures & found it in religious authorities.
Yet, now I realize that we are to not have any other gods before God, who is love, the only thing that will never fail. -Moroni 7:47
“When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I now even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.”-1Cor 13:11-13 Featherina, I agree with almost everything in your last comment – seriously. The only part where I don’t agree is the following: Quote:Yet, I am more aware that 1/3 of TITHES are supposed to be given to the poor, & they are not. -Deut 14:28-29
There are LOTS of things that have changed in “the law” from the Old Testament times, and one of them (in my opinion) is the specific way we care for the poor. Tithing used to be the primary method of such care, since the “operating costs” of the religion were funded through civil taxes.
The government ran the religions in most practical ways, and the government built the houses of worship.Therefore, there was no need for the prophets and priests to be involved in any way whatsoever with the funding of the operations of the religion – and tithing could be used to provide their own living expenses, fund the sacrifices for the temples and allocate 1/3 of the total to help the poor within their own “congregations”. Importantly, in that time, there was no “humanitarian aid” given to those outside Israel (and later, Judaism). ALL of the assistance to the poor was only for the “internal poor”. Contrast that situation to what we have now:
1) Our civil taxes don’t pay for any of the operating costs of our religious communities. They do, however, help provide assistance to the poor. (We can argue about how effectively that portion of our taxes is used, but we can’t argue that part of our taxes isn’t used to help the poor.) Thus, we are contributing in that way directly to the help of the poor in a way that the people in the Old Testament didn’t. If you will, we are tithing to the government (and, often, more than tithing, frankly) – and some of that money goes to help the poorest among us. Iow, our tithing now is a replacement for the taxes people paid back then – and our tithing generally provides what the former taxes used to provide. That’s an important thing to understand, since it leads directly to the next points.
2) Since the government doesn’t build and maintain houses of worship anymore, and since the government no longer pays the living expenses of the religious leaders and the costs of the ceremonies they perform, that responsibility falls on us – and we fund those costs through tithing. Again, those expenditures aren’t used to help only the middle-class and rich; they help all indiscriminately – which means they help the poor in MANY places around the world who wouldn’t be able to have those resources without our tithing. Thus, as I said above, our tithing helps the poor in exactly the same way their taxes helped the poor.
3) Fast Offerings, in practical terms, are our modern substitution for the tithing of the ancient days – and our Fast Offerings are used to assist the poor at a MUCH higher rate than the previous 33% of tithing, since our own tithing is used to fund the other 67% of what tithing used to do. Thus, the focus now on “tithes and offerings” rather than just the tithing of the past – and the request for the last few decades to donate generously in Fast Offerings and not just the donate the cost of two meals (since, as you noted, the need is much greater than it has been in the past). Thus, the issue for me is not that we use 33% of our modern tithing to help the poor but that we all, as individuals, donate as generously as we can in Fast Offerings to help the poor. That actually fits the ancient pattern very well – and it’s what the Church itself preaches at the top levels. If there’s justified condemnation, imo, it is the membership’s unwillingness to eliminate much of the excess in our lives and give more in Fast Offering funds – not the Church’s effort to provide the “blessings” of tithing and Fast Offerings as a replacement for the old system of taxes and tithing.
4) On top of that, the Church also provides humanitarian aid to people who were not helped in any way whatsoever by tithing in the Old Testament – which is why the comparison of tithing and humanitarian aid is so twisted and insidious, especially as it relates to the Old Testament standard for tithing. The very existence of humanitarian aid, given the total lack of it in the Old Testament, should be used as an example of how serious the LDS Church is about helping people – not as an example of their callousness toward the poor. That argument is horribly twisted and egregious.
iow, in summary, the Church now has to fund through tithing what the government used to fund through taxes; it funds the former 33% of tithing to assist the poor through Fast Offerings (which are given to members and non-members, unlike in the ancient past); and it also provides humanitarian aid to those outside the Church – which the former tithing did not do.
When you look at the big picture and realize what an accurate, comprehensive comparison entails, I hope it’s easier to realize how distorted and misleading the claims are about how the Church neglects the poor and robs them in some way. The LDS Church actually does much more for “the poor around the world” now than ancient Israel did in the Old Testament (and it’s not even close), and it takes care of “its own” every bit as much and others much, much more. When you factor in our taxes, the poor tend to be taken care of by us better than they were in the ancient past – even as we can argue about exactly how that is done.
If you doubt that, consider the case of Naomi and Ruth – where they had to gather the unwanted wheat from the fields and, essentially, resort to sexual offerings (though not that explicitly worded) in order for Ruth to be secure. That situation was not uncommon, and starvation or severe malnutrition were just as rampant, proportionate to the total population, as they are now in under-developed, third-world countries. Yes, more people are in severe poverty with regard to sheer numbers, since the total world population is so high, but the percent of seriously poor people now is not higher than it was back then – especially in the most modern countries.
Again, I agree totally that we need to do a much better job of caring for the poor – and that we need to strive to establish Zion, including the eradication of severe poverty among us, but in comparison to the Old Testament times, we are doing a relatively good job. In light of the full picture, the Church absolutely is not robbing the poor.
Ray & Featherina – I commend both of you for having such a civil and intelligent discussion. Thanks Roy & Ray. Ray,
We’ll have to agree to disagree.
I understand your reasoning, however the church is not just scraping by – unlike other businesses, they don’t pay much in wages… yes, they pay for buildings but those are profit-generating buildings – with little expense, except to maintain, & even cleaning is often done by church members.
To me, Jesus didn’t teach religous organizations to focus on capitalism – & I find it difficult to see how Jesus could ever teach the church to add to the church’s coporate empire through a shopping mall.
Still, I hope to make it clear that just because I believe church leaders have made mistakes, doesn’t mean they are all bad.
It is a cognitive distortion to believe anybody is either 100% good or 100% evil… as it is also to believe the church is either 100% true or 100% false.
It’s both.
Some quotes I like from church leaders:
“Continuous education is our labor, our business & our calling.” -Brigham Young
“The deepest expression of spirituality is love.” -Robert L. Simpson
“We need to remember that though we make our friends, God has made our neighbors – everywhere. Love should have no boundary; we should have no narrow loyalties.” – Howard W. Hunter
“A man filled with the love of God, is not content with blessing his family alone, but ranges through the whole world, anxious to bless the whole human race.” -Joseph Smith
“Where there is a need, I personally have a responsibility to help. There is little use asking who is my neighbor; I am neighbor to my neighbor in need.” -Marion D. Hanks
“To be valiant… is to take the Lord’s side on every issue.” -Bruce R. McConckie
“God recognizes only one justification for seeking wealth, & that is with the express intent of helping the poor.” -Hugh Nibley
“Pleasure usually take the form of ‘me” & ‘now,’ while joy is ‘us’ & ‘always.'” -Neal A. Maxwell
“In the final analysis, the gospel of God is written, not in the dead letters of the scriptural records, but in the lives of the Saints.” -Bruce R . McConkie
Quote:28 ¶At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates:
29 And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.
Deuteronomy 14: 28 & 29
I did a search on my iPad Gospel Library application and this scripture did show up. I did a search on LDS.org and it showed up. I wonder why it worked for me.
I understand this a little bit differently but I see where one can get the idea that 1/3 of tithes are to go to the poor. What I see is that every third year tithes are made available to the Levite and others who are in need to meet their needs. I think our practice of fast offerings provides the same thing (except for the Levites) and it provides all the time instead of every third year.
Thoreau, If you search in traditional scriptures’ LDS bible topical guide and dictionary, the scripture is left out.
Of course, if you search online, it will come up, as will pretty much everything ever entered will.
Deut 14:28-29 specifically states that tithing are to be given to those in need, not fast offerings.
Jesus taught about the good Samaritan, who did not spend his money/energy on converting the dying man, he HELPED him.
I agree with another poster who explained how following the prophet unquestioningly is straight from hell.
The war in heaven was partly about Satan trying to force everyone to obey, without free agency – & which was/is based on lies.
Jesus and many other Christ-like people have taught that as we love others, we love God & as we neglect others we neglect God (Matt 25).
Also, taught by Jesus is that we are to love God and love others as ourselves & that
“…on these 2 commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” Matt 22:40 I”ve been wayfaring in Happy Valley and north with my family as my #4 graduated from the Lord’s University Thursday/Friday. We went to get dinner, and afterward, while my very TBM DW and I drove down I-15 from SLC, she says, “Why would the church need to build an upscale mall?” I choked a bit, realizing that everyone of these type of conversations doesn’t necessarily end up in a happy place. I am thinking to myself, be careful, wayfarer, feeding her disaffection always backfires.
“They probably need a place for investing their money.”
She responds, “But what money? I don’t want my tithing money going to build a mall. Is it because they want to control the Salt Lake downtown area?”
“Perhaps”, I said. “It’s a large investment, from 1.5B to 5B. Some of that is going to construct high-end condominiums as well, so it may not all be for the mall.”
“High-end condominiums? How does that fit into tithing money?”
“They say it’s not supposed to involve any tithing money. And the Condominiums are likely convenient residences for the Brethren and their families to be closer to the Office.”
“You’re saying that with some sarcasm.”
“I don’t think so. I’m just trying to lay out the facts. The church has a lot of money, and it probably needs a place to hold it; why not in something that benefits the Brethren?”
“now you’re really being sarcastic.”
“Not really. The church takes in a lot of money. It thus has capital to use, while it is being held for allocation to buildings, etc. None of the tithing money, of course, is used for the poor, but for church building and administration. So while the capital is retained, it can be used to make more money for the church.”
“Well I just don’t think that’s right.”
“Perhaps there are a lot of things that don’t appear quite right. You were reading Rough Stone Rolling, but you stopped.”
“Yes, well, I don’t want to think about this any more today.”
“So you’re putting it on a shelf somewhere?”
“Yes, you could say that.”
“What happens when the contents of the shelf get so much that it breaks?”
“Your shelf is broken, isn’t it?”
“uhhh… you could say that”
“well, I just don’t like being out here in Utah, it brings up too much stuff….”
“indeed.”
Then we got various types of berries, whipping cream, and ice cream, went to my sister’s house and had dessert. Fresh berries and real whipped cream — it’s the best.
Fetherina, we’ve already disagreed about the OT verse, and I don’t want to go back and forth again since I wrote so much in my earlier comments (and really don’t want to argue here), but let me reiterate one thing: Absolutely EVERYTHING about the financial situation relative to religion is different now than it was back then.I think that is more than just critical to understand and accept.
I’m not arguing for the mall in saying that (really, I’m not), but I am saying that quoting the OT about tithing is not reasonable, given how radically different our religious funding circumstances are than they used to be. It’s a solid argument IF, and only if, you are willing to argue that other things from the OT should be accepted and followed, also – just because they are said in the OT. I really don’t think anyone here wants to make that argument.
So… I live really far from Utah and didn’t think CCM would ever come up in my ward but today while I was teaching, a sister mentioned that she was in Utah this past week. She described the odd feeling of being in City Creek Mall and looking through the windows at the temple. She described being surrounded by all the material things one could desire and then seeing the temple across the way. She actually referred to the mall as the great and spacious building. I laughingly asked her if it was floating before navigating the discussion back to the scriptures. I don’t know if she knows how involved the church was in this project but I found it interesting that this sister thought of her visit to City Creek Mall during the RS lesson. The topic that the Stake provided for today’s TFOT lesson was “Be in the world but not of the world”.
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