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Interesting that a reference under tithing doesn’t show up for Deuteronomy 14: 28 & 29 in the paper copy of the topical guide. Old-Timer wrote:… It’s a solid argument IF, and only if, you are willing to argue that other things from the OT should be accepted and followed, also – just because they are said in the OT. I really don’t think anyone here wants to make that argument.
No. I do not.
The old testament stuff, tithing, polygamy, temples, priesthood, gathering of Israel, Prophets etc etc…none of it makes any sense to me.
cwald wrote:Old-Timer wrote:… It’s a solid argument IF, and only if, you are willing to argue that other things from the OT should be accepted and followed, also – just because they are said in the OT. I really don’t think anyone here wants to make that argument.
No. I do not.
The old testament stuff, tithing, polygamy, temples, priesthood, gathering of Israel, Prophets etc etc…none of it makes any sense to me.
Then why don’t we all just rip out most of the bible?
Still, I agree there are some pretty darn weird things in the OT… so what I do, & what Jesus instructed us to do is to hold all things (scriptures) up to the 2 greatest commandments: to love God & to love others as ourselves…
“on these 2 commandments hang all the law and the prophets (profits).”-Matt 22:40 Some may argue, well, loving God means to build malls… but think again…
“Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me…Inasmuch as ye have NOT done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have NOT done it unto me…”
-Matt 25:40,45 Any money gained in the name of Jesus Christ should be used for principles Jesus Christ taught, especially regarding loving others as ourselves.
Today, tens of thousands will die of preventable problems, while the “true” church of Jesus Christ is benefiting from another church owned commercial mall.
Let’s see – saving lives or investing in another corporation? What would Jesus do? (If you don’t know, read the parable of the good Samaritan.)
Still, I’m “staying lds” despite these problems.
Why?
Honestly, mostly for my family – my DH & kids.
But I also have come to love & be loved by members, who I consider separate & different from the leaders & how leaders hide & manage finances.
Featherina wrote:
Then why don’t we all just rip out most of the bible?
Excellent question.
mercyngrace wrote:So… I live really far from Utah and didn’t think CCM would ever come up in my ward but today while I was teaching, a sister mentioned that she was in Utah this past week. She described the odd feeling of being in City Creek Mall and looking through the windows at the temple. She described being surrounded by all the material things one could desire and then seeing the temple across the way. She actually referred to the mall as the great and spacious building. I laughingly asked her if it was floating before navigating the discussion back to the scriptures. I don’t know if she knows how involved the church was in this project but I found it interesting that this sister thought of her visit to City Creek Mall during the RS lesson.
The topic that the Stake provided for today’s TFOT lesson was “Be in the world but not of the world”.
Yeah, the irony…doug wrote:Featherina wrote:
Then why don’t we all just rip out most of the bible?
Excellent question.
Yeah. Sounds like a reasonable and logical thing to do.
Featherina wrote:Then why don’t we all just rip out most of the bible?
Still, I agree there are some pretty darn weird things in the OT… so what I do, & what Jesus instructed us to do is to hold all things (scriptures) up to the 2 greatest commandments: to love God & to love others as ourselves…
“on these 2 commandments hang all the law and the prophets (profits).”-Matt 22:40 Some may argue, well, loving God means to build malls… but think again…
“Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me…Inasmuch as ye have NOT done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have NOT done it unto me…”
-Matt 25:40,45 Any money gained in the name of Jesus Christ should be used for principles Jesus Christ taught, especially regarding loving others as ourselves.
Today, tens of thousands will die of preventable problems, while the “true” church of Jesus Christ is benefiting from another church owned commercial mall.
Let’s see – saving lives or investing in another corporation? What would Jesus do? (If you don’t know, read the parable of the good Samaritan.)…
I’m not arguing the mall…I agree with you. The church is wrong, IMO. I just don’t know how any of it relates to the OT. I don’t see how the OT Israeli myths apply to Matt 22:40. Not at all
doug wrote:Featherina wrote:
Then why don’t we all just rip out most of the bible?
Excellent question.
But if the church got rid of the Old Testament, they couldn’t charge tithing for worthiness.So, like it or not, we have to keep the OT… & they just would rather we ignore that little scripture about 1/3 of tithes for the poor (Deut 14:28-29).
Silly poor – “their suffering will be for their own good” – just ask the good Samaritan – Oh, wait – he actually helped the dying man & we are commanded to “go and do likewise.”
Also, if we disregard the OT, we’d have to disregard the Pearl of Great Price.
Personally, there are really beautiful & helpful scriptures in the OT…
Yes, you have to sift through some other less valuable stuff, but isn’t that life?
Proverbs is packed of wisdom. (“
Trust in the Lord”Proverbs 3:5) I also like:
“The lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart.”-1Sam 16:7 “Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself: I am the Lord.”-Leviticus 19:18 cwald wrote:I’m not arguing the mall…I agree with you. The church is wrong, IMO. I just don’t know how any of it relates to the OT. I don’t see how the OT Israeli myths apply to Matt 22:40. Not at all
If the church is going to enforce the law of tithing as given in the OT but ignore specific instructions in Deut 14:28-29 regarding sharing tithes with the poor, it reveals that they are collecting donations out of greed (their own purposes) rather than doing God’s will and written in scriptures considered to be inspired of God.Deut 14:28-29 instructs 1/3 of tithes to be given to those in need.
Even an atheist would see wisdom in sharing donations given for “GOoD”, with those in need.
Matt 22:40 states that all laws & prophets must comply with the 2 greatest commandments – to love God & to love others as ourselves.
How do we love God? By loving others. How do we neglect God? By neglecting others. -Matt 25:40,45
So, if a organization is going to collect donations & accumulate finances in the name of Jesus Christ, finances should be handled as Jesus would, which is primarily to care for those in need. Deut 14;28-29, although the “lesser law” – giving 1/3 of tithes to those in need is in more compliance with the 2 greatest commandments than is to give NOTHING of tithes to the poor, as is currently happening.
Old-Timer wrote:Absolutely EVERYTHING about the financial situation relative to religion is different now than it was back then.I think that is more than just critical to understand and accept.
I’m not arguing for the mall in saying that (really, I’m not), but I am saying that quoting the OT about tithing is not reasonable, given how radically different our religious funding circumstances are than they used to be. It’s a solid argument IF, and only if, you are willing to argue that other things from the OT should be accepted and followed, also – just because they are said in the OT. I really don’t think anyone here wants to make that argument.
sure, much of the Law is set aside in the old testament. But the higher law was never set aside. Starting with Shema Ysrael, hashem eloheinu hashem ehad!, the concepts of love of god and neighbor, and benevolent giving to the poor was and is the core of the gospel.In acts, the primary contributions were for the ebionim, the poor, and this included the poor priests (such as James the Just) for his living as a bishop of Jerusalem and apostle.
Paul makes no reference that the contributions would be for him (he was not poor). Jesus asked the rich to set aside their riches for the poor (ebionim), so this law of charitable purpose of ‘the bag’ has it’s origins in Christ.
Whether we accept biblical precedent at all may not be as important as following the spirit of what Jesus taught: the idea of an upscale monument to mammon would not be part of Christ’s program.
Quote:Featherina
…giving 1/3 of tithes to those in need is in more compliance with the 2 greatest commandments than is to give NOTHING of tithes to the poor, as is currently happening.
Excuse me. I think this is a dead horse that’s been beaten but I’m going to need some documentaton about “nothing of tithes going to the poor”.
GBSmith wrote:Quote:Featherina
…giving 1/3 of tithes to those in need is in more compliance with the 2 greatest commandments than is to give NOTHING of tithes to the poor, as is currently happening.
Excuse me. I think this is a dead horse that’s been beaten but I’m going to need some documentaton about “nothing of tithes going to the poor”.
The dead is not a horse, GBSmith, it is tens of thousands of men, women & children who DIED today of diseases that prey on those suffering chronic hunger & extreme poverty.I’d be glad to give you documentation, although you already know because you’ve heard over & over how tithing is separate from fast offerings & other donations.
The most obvious one is the LDS Donation slip.
http://wendyusuallywanders.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/tithing_slip.jpg Notice there are seperate categories for tithing and those in need (fast-offering, and humanitarian).
If tithes were given to those in need, there would be one category, not 3.
Dallin H. Oaks wrote,
“We do not pay tithing by contributing to our favorite charities. The contributions we should make to charities come from our own funds, not from the tithes we are commanded to pay to the storehouse of the Lord.The Lord has directed by revelation that the expenditure of his tithes will be directed by his servants, the First Presidency, the Quorum of the Twelve, and the Presiding Bishopric (see D&C 120). Those funds are spent to build and maintain temples and houses of worship, to conduct our worldwide missionary work, to translate and publish scriptures, to provide resources to redeem the dead, to fund religious education, and to support other Church purposes selected by the designated servants of the Lord.”
http://www.lds.org/ensign/1994/05/tithing?lang=eng Not a cent of tithing goes to those in need & this is robbing from the poor, according to Deut 14:28-29.
Featherina wrote:
Not a cent of tithing goes to those in need & this is robbing from the poor, according to Deut 14:28-29.Sorry but you’re wrong. Not much of a basis for reasoned civil discussion so I’m just going to leave it at that. You’re wrong.
Quote:Not a cent of tithing goes to those in need & this is robbing from the poor, according to Deut 14:28-29.
GB is correct. This simply is inaccurate. We can disagree about the use of tithing, but much of it does go to the poor.
I’m closing the thread, since we now are doing nothing but recycling things that have been said multiple times already. There’s nowhere to go and nothing to add that hasn’t been said already. (Makes me feel like one of the Omni writers.
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