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I was thinking more about my prior comment about gays joining the church because they are converted and I was again drawn to Pres. Uchtdorf’s October conference address (I had just read it again in preparation for meeting with the SP). Before he talked about those of us who leave, he talked about those who are in the and there are three reason people join the church: 1. People believe it is the church of Jesus Christ
2. The church provides the opportunity to do good and have an active faith
3. People perceive (and do actually find) blessings in the church.
Under those circumstances it seems it wouldn’t matter if one was gay or straight, male or female, black or white. And, I think we all joined the church for one or more of those reasons.
That said, the original question was knowing what you know now, would you join the church?
I am a lifetime member – though not necessarily by choice – strange as that sounds. Would I stay with the church knowing what I know now? I guess I feel about that like Maxwell said about the furnace of affliction. I certainly wouldn’t feel inclined to jump back in line for a second pass. But, I feel that because of the church, I am closer to God than I would be otherwise. That doesn’t mean I’m as close as I should be – just that I’m closer than I would have been. And for me, that’s the real purpose of ANY church – to bring you closer to God. In the things that really matter, I don’t think your good-hearted mormon is one iota above a good hearted baptism, catholic, or muslim. If I could go back before the pain of the last 10 years, my inclination would be to search for something that would accomplish that without the pain. But, perhaps God knew what He was doing when He put me in the church – knowing that there were things I’d learn in no other way. My girlfriend dumped me yesterday (this is relevant to the discussion.) Even though we get along well and have lots of fun together, she says she still doesn’t feel attracted to me (after weeks of trying) and was tired of trying to feel it. And so I’ve been going through all the things that I could have done in the last year that would have made me into someone she’s attracted to (I’ve always struggled with attracting women.) I didn’t date much at all last spring or summer, and dating more may have helped me learned some things. But I did spend more time studying for the Physics GRE, which I did well on. I’ve heard that it’s best to judge the wisdom of a decision not by the outcome, but the the quality of the decision at the time it was made. The decisions I made over the last year made sense at the time, but they’ve led to me not lighting a fire inside someone who I very much want in my life. But my decisions over the last year made sense at the time and they seemed like good decisions, even if I now wish that I would have acted differently. I’m a lifelong Church member, but for those who joined the Church as teenagers or adults, joining the Church made sense at the time and seemed like a good decision. In general, I think we shouldn’t be mad at ourselves for making a decision that we now see as bad, but that seemed like a good decision at the time.
It’s still going to be hard to take my own advice on this in my particular situation.
turinturambar wrote:I think that any gay person would be crazy to join the church as it currently stands.
I agree. I told the Elders something similar in a recent Missionary correlation meeting (I’m branch mission leader). Their eyes nearly popped out of their head.
I then went on to teach them the church now teaches that “being gay isn’t a choice” and then talked about how much I appreciated my marriage and what it brought me. I told them I was left feeling uncertain about why God would cause anyone to be gay and then expect them to join a church where they had to pretend to be something they were not. Instead I wondered whether, given God has a plan for each of his children, that his plan for gay people was not in Mormonism.
As to the question itself… It’s a difficult one. I was born in the covenant so would have to think of it differently.
At 16/17yo I had a “faith crisis” (perhaps more an existential crisis!). I almost stopped attending at that point. I’d not got into any of the “history issues” – just some of the logic of the doctrine and the size of our claims didn’t make sense to me. I often think back and wonder what life might have been like if I’d stopped then. My younger brother went down that route a few years later (didn’t serve a mission, now very happily ‘out’ of the church and engaged to someone who is more Buddhist than anything else).
So if I ask myself the question… if I could go back to being 17, would I leave? No. My teenage years were great, I met my wife through church connections. Some of our key life choices were based around church values. I have no regrets and would not want to lose what I have now. As it happens, my wife is not active any more. Our relationship is still great – perhaps stronger than ever. I wouldn’t risk that for anything.
However… if the question is even more hypothetical. If I could have everything I have today (marriage, children, perspectives and paradigms, life situation and experiences, life lessons learned) and yet have done it with no church connection in the process at all then I would, hesitantly, say… Maybe…! Today I’m a universalist. I choose to live my faith in a Mormon community and I have Mormon cultural connections. But I don’t consider Mormonism to be “the way.” I consider it a vehicle among many for travelling along the way. Perhaps there is a better faith community to live as a universalist. I still contemplate trying a few.
But saying all that, no, I’ve no regrets given the value of what life has given to me through, in part, being part of the Mormon community.
“the church now teaches that “being gay isn’t a choice”” Of course, this is something gay people have innately known all along. Then again, nobody asked them their opinion. That’s on society at large. The church is just usually behind society because it’s so conservative. Would I join again? To me the question is whether I would be drawn to it if I hadn’t been raised in it. Would I have found it intriguing enough to listen to discussions or whatever. I really don’t know. It’s hard to say. There are aspects that would have drawn me to it, but there are things that would have turned me off.
I got baptized when I was 8 by my father who had just joined the church. It was an awesome experience and I was one of the rare 8 year olds who actually made the choice to get baptized and was happy about it. I’ve had some very cherished experiences in the church. Having said that, If I weren’t a member now and was approached about the church, I don’t think there’s anyway I would join. Due to my larger world view now and many other factors, I feel like I’ve outgrown a need for the church. I’m staying purely to please my family. I still enjoy small aspects of it at times, but I so wish I didn’t have to go anymore.
With the view of the world I have now there is now way I would join the church. Of course my view was in large measure developed by my experiences in the church. Sort of a chicken or the egg things. But If I could go back in time and warn my younger self to get out I would. Cadence wrote:With the view of the world I have now there is now way I would join the church. Of course my view was in large measure developed by my experiences in the church. Sort of a chicken or the egg things. But If I could go back in time and warn my younger self to get out I would.
This is an extremely good point.
But so much in Mormonism, like the Endowment, you only find out about after you’ve been through it!
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