WTF is Faith, anyway?

[Anonymous]

1) Inaction is a form of action – at least in that it has to be chosen.

2) “but then we shall see even as we now are seen”

I would say the end HOPE or GOAL of faith is absolute certainty at some point. The issue is when one believes that certainty can be gained, imo.

[Anonymous]

I read a quote sometime ago, which I wish I could remember where so I could reference it, but it went something like this.

Faith begins where science, history, and reason can no longer explain events. Faith is not to be use to make science, history and reason conform to any specific dogma.

I am sure I butchered the quote, but the point is faith is only valuable when you have exhausted all other options. When you have studied, contemplated and reasoned the truth. I really believe faith is simply an extension of the God given intelligence we were given by the creator himself. I can have all the faith I want that the moon is made of cheese, but that does not make it so. A more classic example may be something like the earth is 6000 years old, or there was a flood that covered the whole earth, or dinosaurs never existed. These are all things I was taught as fact by a seminary teacher many years ago. I had faith that they were true, until I studied geology in college and had to reason that the evidence did not support having faith in such concepts. Even Alma in the BOM says you can only have faith in things that are true (Alma 32:21).

My conclusion is use faith to get you over the hard spots in life but use your intelligence to get you through the day. Sort of opposite of Mormon culture I know.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

My conclusion is use faith to get you over the hard spots in life but use your intelligence to get you through the day. Sort of opposite of Mormon culture I know.

Um, fwiw, I think that is perfectly consistent with what I see as pure Mormonism – and what I have heard preached from the pulpit most of my life in all of the wards and branches I’ve attended. (“commanded in all things . . . slothful servant” – “study it out in your mind” – glory of God is intelligence” – faith without works is dead” – “put your shoulder to the wheel” – “all the best books” – etc.)

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

Quote:

My conclusion is use faith to get you over the hard spots in life but use your intelligence to get you through the day. Sort of opposite of Mormon culture I know.

Um, fwiw, I think that is perfectly consistent with what I see as pure Mormonism – and what I have heard preached from the pulpit most of my life in all of the wards and branches I’ve attended. (“commanded in all things . . . slothful servant” – “study it out in your mind” – glory of God is intelligence” – faith without works is dead” – “put your shoulder to the wheel” – “all the best books” – etc.)

Perhaps you are correct.

[Anonymous]

I too have struggled with trying to define faith. A scripture study didn’t help, neither did such books as “Faith Precedes the Miracle” It all sounded like mush to me. But I have finally come to a definition that I can work from. It is having the confidence to do things that require time, money, effort, commitment, or some kind of risk when I don’t have objective evidence that my efforts will get the desired result.

This coorelates somewhat with Hebrews 11:1 which says “faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”

Changing the word substance to confidence helps. I feel comfortable with that because if you click on it at http://scriptures.lds.org/en/heb/11/1b it gives the word assurance. Better still, the German scripture translates to confidence. “Es ist aber der Glaube eine feste Zuversicht auf das, was man hofft, und ein Nichtzweifeln an dem, was man nicht sieht.”

With this definition, I can see where I exercise a fair amount of faith. I pay tithing & fast offering, I go to church most Sundays to at least 1 meeting. I pray with my wife nightly, I make extra effort to be honest in my business dealings, I wear G’s most days. These things take time, money, effort, commitment, or some kind of risk with uncertain outcomes. To be honest I do get a benefit now. I feel more a peace with myself when I do those thing I know I should do. This is experimenting on the word, and finding it delicious. Not everything in the Church is but some of it is.

[Anonymous]

swimordie wrote:

So, your level of certainty would motivate that action/inaction, in this way making “faith” a measure of your certainty of the belief?

That would make sense in the paradigm of “faith-promoting”; not in hearing something faith-promoting but in acting on your certainty, self-promoting the “faith” and finding oneself in a more certain place, to then repeat the process until the certainty is “unshakable”. That feels self-reinforcing which makes sense in the paradigm of total immersion in the pursuit of faith, ie, praying constantly, reading scriptures regularly, bearing testimony, going to church, etc, etc.

Yes! This agrees with what Joseph Smith said, RE: faith is a gift from God.

swimordie wrote:

It also makes sense in the troubling context of orthodox believers being so resistant to concepts which contradict their belief. In the self-promoting process of “faith” building, it would be counter-intuitive to let anything derail that process.

Yes, that too. It is a double-edged sword.

swimordie wrote:

The end-game for orthodox believers, then, seems to be absolute certainty.

And, if the endgame is certainty, what is motivating the action at that point? Keeping score? If you know, with absolute certainty, that would call into question the true intention of any action as altruistically selfish.

Maybe??

Well, here I either don’t understand you, or I part ways.

God is omniscient, He/She knows all, therefore faith is not in the equation of creation, right? Except, faith (as taught by Joseph) is a principle of power, or action. Therefore, it has something to do with making things happen.

Consider God Himself/Herself creating the universe. Knowledge is complete, Faith is therefore inactive, somehow. But actually, faith is now nascent, for God has decided to say “let there be light”, and yet in that thought, there is not yet light, for God has not spoken it. It doesn’t appear until God takes action and speaks. To motivate speech, faith must exist.

HiJolly

[Anonymous]

At some level, HiJolly, I think you understood.

From God’s perspective(and in the mormon cosmology), “let there be light” is altruistically selfish. Right intentions but for more personal glory??

My examination was intended to be a little more practical, less cosmological. Take muslim suicide bombers. Their acts of martyrdom may come from a place of pure “faith” or “certainty”, yet it smacks of altruistic selfishness (72 virgins).

I guess the concept I’m examining is the difference between orthodox religions’ view of “faith” and the ideal of fowler’s stage six view of faith. The difference, in a crude way, being the exercising of faith in pursuit of certainty versus the exercising of faith in pursuit of “goodness”.

I’m not insinuating that they are paradoxical views. I just see them as different. And, I sense that they are used interchangeably while I see them as different. Therein, lies the dilemma of the original question. Does faith mean both of those views, is it the same and my differences are an illusion, or is it all just semantics?

[Anonymous]

swimordie wrote:

At some level, HiJolly, I think you understood.

From God’s perspective(and in the mormon cosmology), “let there be light” is altruistically selfish. Right intentions but for more personal glory??

My examination was intended to be a little more practical, less cosmological. Take muslim suicide bombers. Their acts of martyrdom may come from a place of pure “faith” or “certainty”, yet it smacks of altruistic selfishness (72 virgins).

I guess the concept I’m examining is the difference between orthodox religions’ view of “faith” and the ideal of fowler’s stage six view of faith. The difference, in a crude way, being the exercising of faith in pursuit of certainty versus the exercising of faith in pursuit of “goodness”.

I’m not insinuating that they are paradoxical views. I just see them as different. And, I sense that they are used interchangeably while I see them as different. Therein, lies the dilemma of the original question. Does faith mean both of those views, is it the same and my differences are an illusion, or is it all just semantics?

Very good, swimordie. I get you now.

I am convinced that if we pursue the exercising of faith for ‘goodness’ sake’ alone, we cannot avoid an increase in certainty. Certainty of what? Heh.

HiJolly

[Anonymous]

I think Faith and certianty can be a moving target sometimes. I seem to have faith in things with such certainty today, then tomorrow, learn something new and try to be certain about my new faith.

I think this is why I have been focused lately on the value of learning and moving forward…it seems to me that back when I lacked faith and worked hard to have more faith in God, it helped me realize I can rely on God unquestioningly, and so I grew and learned those lessons. I became confident and certain I could rely on God’s help in my life all the time (it became an expectation that I would have prayers answered instantly like they were in the past). Then I was left alone for a time without answers to my prayers as I expected to receive them to figure things out on my own. That shook my faith, but helped me grow.

In other words, instead of just staying stagnant as a TBM with certainty God will direct my every footstep, I think God wanted me to learn a new lesson and keep moving forward with experiences…and the new lessons are to rely on myself more and be more confident with myself, while realizing God does that to us at times because He loves us and cares about our progression. This provides new experiences for me and new learnings this past year that have been life altering. I’m grateful for that. But I think it varies for each individual for what they need. Sometimes they need more faith and certainty on strict obedience, and sometimes they need more freedom to exercise agency and problem solve creatively. There is no “right” or “wrong” in how we learn…it is all more experience to continue learning in new ways. That is my faith today.

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

There is no “right” or “wrong” in how we learn…it is all more experience to continue learning in new ways. That is my faith today.

Love that insight, heber!!

[Anonymous]

I equate the word faith with the modern definition of the word confidence. someone told me the other day that their personal definition of confidence was “action without thinking” in the church it is taught, correctly i believe, that “faith is a principle of action” sure we can believe that service is a great thing but if we sit on our butts all day and never really go out and love or serve or be charitable to someone that belief is just in vain and hasn’t done us any good. we must use faith to go out and “become” or “be” what we believe god wants us to be and the only way to do that is through faith.

i think that faith is the bridge between hope and charity. it is often said in the church that doubt is the opposite of faith. i’m not sure i entirely believe this. hope precedes faith and the thinking process is the hope part in my mind. the scriptures say that this hope must be anchored on the other side of the veil. i have lots of doubts about what’s on the other side of the veil and so resolving them is a necessity preceding my action. once i have resolved all “current” doubt i can then act in faith to produce a result. that result, if done in good faith, is charity or at least “brotherly kindness” which leads to true love. i then think that the action, if repeated, refined, exercised, and perfected will grow from charity to knowledge. in 2 peter, the apostle exhorts us to make “our calling and election sure” and he gives the formula to do this. “add to your faith virtue….and to brotherly kindness charity. for if these be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfriuttful in the knowledge of our lord jesus christ. the brother of jared had faith before he saw god, but after he saw god he no longer had faith, he knew. so the repeated action of righteous living created for the brother of jared a perfected way of life until he saw god which imo according to 1 john 3:2 requires us to be like him so that we may see him as he is. he had “become” godlike through faith. so in a nutshell i think it probably goes something like this

reducing iniquity (we can all do this on the basic level because we all have the light of christ) leads to hope(mere belief, longing, expectations) which must be formulated in the mind (resolving doubt, questions, concerns) and anchored on the other side of the veil, leads to faith (confidence) which produces an action of charity (love) repeaded charity (love) refines that love until it is perfect and it becomes a knowledge and we become “godlike” (charitalbe, loving, serving, sacrificing)

sorry lots of jumbled thoughts that changed as i wrote this

[Anonymous]

I think faith is choosing to believe something. When we choose to believe something we put a measure of trust in that belief. I think that is the confidence idea that you mentioned. I don’t think that there is a clear line of distinction between faith and hope. Maybe with faith you have put more trust in the belief. I don’t know. But I don’t think that you’re going to come up with a clear picture like you want by trying to piece together all of these ideas from different scriptures. Ultimately, you need to choose what you believe concerning these matters.

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

… that faith is a requirement [confidence/hope/focus/intellectual understanding/cultural setting], indeed…the first principle of the gospel. It is not to replace the drive for knowledge or truth, it is to accompany it.

NOTE: Bracket contains alternate applicable definitions.

I phrased it this way because we ask our new members to study specific gospel principles, integrate into the Mormon cultural setting, and have the confidence/hope/focus to continue on the path – whether 8 or 88, that is how it works (and it works wonderfully for some). I think that part of moving beyond stage 3 is resolving the cognitive dissonance that occurs when the intellectual understanding/cultural setting shifts to the point where it hurts to continue to practice that confidence/hope/focus until a new balance is reached. I see this as an ongoing process – and a sign of progress and spiritual development.

Heber13 wrote:

Without faith, I believe we give up. We stop trying. Faith is our motivation in all we do. You take a step with faith your foot will be upheld by a firm floor that will move you where you want to go (have you ever missed that last step on the stairs when you had faith something was there? Weird feeling).

I struggle with this faith a lot now. If I can’t trust my understanding of what I know about God, myself, and everything I thought I knew, what can I trust? It is made worse by knowing that a) my husband is not in a place to understand or help me besides loving me, b) I don’t know what I need or what would help, c) leadership roulette could go against me and I could be kicked out of the social group of the branch and the Pathways program/BYU-Idaho online program [currently a very slim change – but not outside the realm of possibility, stranger things have happened].

Here is what I have faith in and rely on (and so far it hasn’t failed me too much):

1.There is a God (or technically I think a team we call God).

2. I have a spark of “God” within me (I don’t know how it works or if there are multiple names attached to it).

3.That the 2 Great Commandments hold true. I don’t know how to show my love for God in a way that both of us understand, but I know I am working on it (outside a religious construct – I don’t know how God feels about religions or the religion I am in – but we will figure it out). Until I know what and how God wants me to show my love for Him/Them, I focus on living the 2nd commandment and loving those around me as best I can.

4.I can pray – and in praying sometimes I will receive inspiration/revelation that comes from God, or comes from the God-Spark within me. I am beginning to think that the majority of the benefit of prayer is a) verbal sorting and organizing of thoughts, b) verbal journalism, c) humility/flexibility/hope to believe that there is Anyone out there who cares what is going on and is interested in helping/cheering me on.

5. There are people out there who can explain/model principles I need to learn.

6. When in doubt, show love (in a way the other people/persons can understand), don’t accidently contaminate others with your opinions/theories (they don’t need them and you don’t need to take the time to explain them however tempting), and go slowly and carefully – avoiding burning bridges you might need later on or burning yourself out by burning resources you don’t have.

Heber13 wrote:

The scientist trying to prove a theory is exercising faith. The baby lunging for dad’s safe arms is exercising faith. The blogger posting thoughts is showing faith.

It is faith in God and His characteristics and His plan that is of significance to our eternal welfare. Faith in false doctrine will lead to a point where the limitations are learned (i.e. damnation). Faith in truth will lead to a never ending search for further truth and light and progression.

This.

[Anonymous]

swimordie wrote:

I think Tom used the art analogy in another post. I like that here, too. I taught a humanities class a few years ago and we spent two hours in class trying to define what “art” is; and we never came up with a definition that even the majority agreed with. I agree with you LaLa, that faith can’t be imposed or presupposed, it’s just too personal.

So, could F&T meeting just be like going to an art museum, everyone just sharing their faith for everyone else to observe and interpret in their own individual way, without qualitative judgments?

I’m liking that as a concept; reality, mmmmm….. dunno. I do feel that staylds.com has approached this ideal. For me anyways. Thanks everyone.

I like the analogy of F&T meeting being like going to an art museum (except they allow children into F&T meeting). That would explain why Primary Program Sunday is either greatly loved or feared (in the sense of letting the kids have a field day at the museum and control the programs/exhibits) ….

NOTE: I personally am not a huge fan of the program because I get hung up on technicalities, and it is always awkward because my daughter does not sing the songs and/or memorize her part and/or requires additional unpredictable support on those days. I don’t do as well with giving additional support in unpredictable situations – especially those where my parenting may or may not be judged… However, most sisters I talk to (even outside of primary) give me weird looks when I am not enthusiastic about the Primary Program and always parrot how special a program it is for them. I used to think they had to be deluding themselves into it for social reasons, but now I think they are just built to enjoy it (and that part was left of this model).

[Anonymous]

I take it the F in WTF stands for faith?

[Author]

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