- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
OK, this is another one of my blunt, direct comments. Strap yourself in. 
Of course, you can get out.No question about it; people get out often, despite everything others cite for not being able to get out. We can do anything we want to do, if we really want to do it more than we want the alternative. It really is that simple conceptually; it’s just not simple OR easy in practical terms. It can be done, however, either way (stay or leave) – and I can say that because I’ve seen it done both ways by many people. I really mean that – but it’s important to understand the WHOLE picture.
For example, if getting out will bring you a greater degree of personal peace but bring intense heartache and pain to others you love, do you REALLY want to get out – or do you just want to reduce your own discomfort / pain / whatever and increase your own peace?
If you REALLY want to get out, no matter the impact on others, then do it. Just do it. Don’t blame anyone else for “making” you leave; just leave.
If, however, you don’t want to cause the consequences I’ve described, don’t leave. Make it your personal, conscious choice – then find OTHER ways to lower your angst and increase your peace. Don’t blame anyone else for “making” you stay; just stay.
Obviously, this forum was founded in order to try to help people figure out how to do the latter – but if the former is what someone needs to do, God bless him or her in the effort to do it the right way and limit the potential damage that might occur as a result.
Ray, I think it is pretty apparent from my wording that I do not wish to leave my family in the dust as I bolt from the church. I do think it is frustrating that I would have to make that choice, though. If I suddenly decided my career was not working for me and not making me happy, my wife would support me in my efforts to find a new path. Likewise with my personal hobbies or preferences. But religion is another matter. There is only one acceptable way and I can take it or leave it. I just don’t like feeling like I have no choice even though I technically do.
I know, brown – and my comment was much more a generic one about the post title than one directed at you. However, I really do think it’s really, really important to admit and consider my point, emotions notwithstanding. Getting caught in the “I can’t, and it’s someone else’s fault” trap is highly destructive, and it’s important to take control of the situation in whatever way makes the most sense for that situation.
I’m sure you know that, but this is a public forum – and the fundamental point needs to be said.
I like Ray’s point. I can see it is kind of like a divorce. It happens all the time (50% of marriages, right?) – so it can be done, but it is not easily done, and there are considerations (kids, finances, etc). So it can be done, but one must be okay with also facing the consequences of the choice.
PiperAlpha wrote:I like Ray’s point. I can see it is kind of like a divorce. It happens all the time (50% of marriages, right?) – so it can be done, but it is not easily done, and there are considerations (kids, finances, etc).
So it can be done, but one must be okay with also facing the consequences of the choice.
I suppose a more accurate description would then be that there are “barriers to exit”, and that the size of those barriers differs depending on individual circumstances.
Brown, Nice post! I feel like I am in the same boat. For me it is a delicate balancing act that I am not very good at. I never imagined that I would be here and am not prepared to cause my family all the pain that would result if I turned in my letter tomarrow. I feel somewhat responsible for my sister just reciently(last month) leaving the church. She struggled for other reasons and when I added all of mine(church history) to hers, she and her husband and 3 of her 4 young children left the church. Now, I have no problem with them deciding to leave, but I have seen the ramifications run their course through the pioneer descendants I call my family. There is also her oldest child who wants despately to stay and is caught between all the well intentioned family, friends, church members etc. some saying lo here and others saying lo there, but all basically saying that your family is going to hell forever and you are the only one who can save them. When all esle fails, play the guilt card! I find help here at staylds and look forward to more comments on this thread. fatherof4husbandof1
Roy wrote:PiperAlpha wrote:I like Ray’s point. I can see it is kind of like a divorce. It happens all the time (50% of marriages, right?) – so it can be done, but it is not easily done, and there are considerations (kids, finances, etc).
So it can be done, but one must be okay with also facing the consequences of the choice.
I suppose a more accurate description would then be
that there are “barriers to exit”, and that the size of those barriers differs depending on individual circumstances.I agree Roy. The church is set up to highly discourage folks from leaving. One has to divorce their cultural as well as their dogma. I’ve never been divorced, but I don’t think its a simple as saying that one can leave just like they can leave a marriage. I don’t think so. In most cases, if you come from a devout family of Mormons and are fully part of the communal tribe of the area, it would probably be easier to go through a marriage divorce, than to leave the church, especially if your spouse was TBM. Just my opinion.
Anyway – I think Brown, that you have a good point. I feel trapped as hell – because of my extended family and the local church members,…and my spouse is very understanding and a Stayldsers/NOM. So i can only just imagine the pressure on guys like yourself who are going through this faith crisis without your spouses support.
Hang in there friend. Hang in there.
Quote:You can’t get out.
Actually I did for years on end. But then again I’m a convert, no family in the LDS.
SamBee wrote:Quote:You can’t get out.
Actually I did for years on end. But then again I’m a convert,
no family in the LDS.I think that is really the SIGNIFICANT part of your comment.
SamBee- I hope you don’t mind my asking, Why did you try or return to trying? If you are a convert and have no familial attachments what was it that drew you back.
If it’s too personal I understand, but maybe your decisions could lend all of us some insight.
If you can share would you – Thanks
I left and it wasn’t that hard for me. Granted, I didn’t have a family of my own at the time, no temple marriage or children, so one could argue I wasn’t as invested in it or faced with the consequences of that, although my parental family was unhappy and I had to deal with that. But I just couldn’t stay. And I felt very freed by my decision. There was just something about saying no to it that made feel really liberated, even though I didn’t necessarily believe the church wasn’t true. I totally sympathize with those who wrestle with this issue but I also think that the entire issue just demonstrates a problem with the church that places undue guilt on its members to remain in the fold. Granted, this is hardly unique to Mormonism but it becomes kind of ugly once you get outside of the Mormon “box” and see an alternative. It’s all fine and dandy when you think you’re living in the one and only true church and that those outside it just don’t get it. But once you get outside that box it becomes extremely disturbing–almost as though it is a cult. I mean it is really difficult to look at it the same again once one undergoes that experience.
Well, anyway, just my two cents.
curt wrote:I totally sympathize with those who wrestle with this issue but I also think that the entire issue just demonstrates a problem with the church that places undue guilt on its members to remain in the fold.
Yes.
I understand that for some parents, a child leaving the church might feel like a repudiation of all that you’ve taught them, or your values, or even of yourself. I understand the theological reasons for the anxiety of an unbelieving or apostate spouse.
While much of the anguish surrounding an apostate family member is understandable and probably unavoidable because of the theological underpinnings of Mormonism and the emotional realities of being a parent, I think there are cultural forces that have heaped more and completely unnecessary anguish into such a situation.
As I reflect on my upbringing in the church and the journeys of people out of the faith, it seems that the church and Mormon culture place a high premium on anchoring individuals to the church rather than working to anchor us first to God or Christ, and then the church. Many Saints would likely disagree with my characterization, but at the least, I think it’s fair to say that many Saints view being anchored to the church AS being anchored to God.
To use a more scriptural metaphor, are we encouraging and helping people to build their houses on a rock?
The as-delivered version of Elder Poelman’s 1984 General Conference talk is a good example of what I think is a healthier approach; the edited and refilmed version exemplifies the approach that I think we often take and that I believe causes unnecessary anguish. (You’ll have to Google it; all the hosted versions of the original talk are hosted on sites hostile to Mormonism. For background, see
hereIf the approach in the church became about anchoring people to God or Christ first, and then the church (and not conflating the two as the same thing), then a) there’d be less anguish and guilt when someone leaves the fold and b) we wouldn’t be creating “graduates” of our religion who are completely allergic to religion and theism.
I keep thinking this when I see the thread: “You can take yourself out of the church, but you can’t take the church out of yourself.” mom3 wrote:SamBee-
I hope you don’t mind my asking, Why did you try or return to trying? If you are a convert and have no familial attachments what was it that drew you back.
If it’s too personal I understand, but maybe your decisions could lend all of us some insight.
If you can share would you – Thanks
No problem. I have covered some of this ground before. It’s obviously a bit different now, since it’s all covered by my present experience. Mormons are thin on the ground here, so I could live for years without knowingly running into them.
I lived as an agnostic for years, drank and got into trouble as a consequence (although I enjoyed much of it, I won’t deny it). I retained a triple combination and got back into reading it. I didn’t keep the law of chastity either, but that’s another story.
I once did one of these religion quizzes and was surprised how high I rated as an LDS. I thought it was out of my system, and just poo-poohed it at the time. Unlike certain folk claim, I was out of the church, didn’t consider myself a member of the church, and didn’t spend my time attacking the church. I had nothing to do with it.
Anyway, first odd experience, was my doctor telling me to cut down on my consumption of “alcohol, tea and coffee”. That coupled with a drunken run-in with the police really got me questioning my lifestyle. This was all a bit sad and depressing, truth be told. The agnosticism really didn’t make me happy, as it provided no answers. But I think it was an intellectually honest position.
I tried bits of Presbyterianism, the Baptists, Buddhism etc. Apart from the Buddhism, they did nothing for me.
I bumped into missionaries occasionally. Was rude to a couple of them (or was I?) pointing out I was unhappy about the church’s racist past without mentioning my membership.
I happened to find some Mormon literature on the street. Not missionary stuff, but manuals. It had presumably been owned by a student here. No idea if she is still about. I read some books in the library about the church, mostly pretty anti, by the way, and these reawakened my interest. I came across an excellent one on the BoM, which made me reassess my position, and stop looking at it so literally. (Either as a supporter or opponent)
Someone I asked me a year and a bit ago if I was Mormon. I said “no”. At the time, that was a truthful answer, but it set me thinking. That and the manuals, the doctor’s advice etc, got me thinking. And at some point, I felt an inner “prompting” (as some would call it) to go back. So I did, with reservations. I actually found I liked the people there, and my ward had an excellent bishop back then. To my surprise, instead of the dark, gray, stern, judgemental place I remembered, I saw something much brighter and happier. The services I remembered as boring, were actually quite moving and I definitely made me feel better internally. It also supplied me with a fresh circle of friends I didn’t need to go drinking with, and spend massive amounts of money with (bar the tithing issue, but that’s a different one!)
Anyway, recalling the pattern of events is a difficult one. It comes down to several experiences, “promptings”, and reading this website which made me more able to see the church in a new light. One of my keys to survive was to expect imperfection, in myself, and in others. I could go on, but this post is long enough as it is.
At times, Mormonism is incredibly insightful, and I like that. At other times, it can be stupid and ignorant. Fortunately I haven’t had massive experience of the latter.
SamBee wrote:At times, Mormonism is incredibly insightful, and I like that. At other times, it can be stupid and ignorant. Fortunately I haven’t had massive experience of the latter.
Great post, SamBee.You want “experience in the matter”, move to Utah.
HiJolly
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.