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This was a great article by an Evangelical-raised woman about the things that happened in her life where she felt a disconnect with what her church told her. http://bethwoolsey.com/2017/09/how-i-became-a-heretic-or-how-the-evangelical-conservative-church-lost-me/?shared=email&msg=fail I can think of some of my own “you lost me” moments, although I take a licking and keep on ticking:
– When I was 10 and found out that the church was opposed to ERA after I had smugly convinced myself that whatever was right was what the church would do, so obviously that would include women being paid equally for equal work.
– When I was a teenager, and my seminary teacher told me I couldn’t be a Mormon if I didn’t accept polygamy.
– When I was listening to General Conference and a speaker said that the reason we use “thee” in prayer is to show respect for deity (and not because it’s the familiar form).
– When E. Ballard mocked the big bang theory in his Gen Conf talk.
Those are just a couple of mine. Maybe it’s helpful to talk about the flip side, though. When the church “had me at hello.”
– When a woman came up to me and thanked me for always keeping it real at church with my fresh comments.
– When I saw how much the church improved the lives of some of the families I baptized on my mission.
– When I heard that a wealthy family in the ward paid to have someone’s roof replaced when they were out of town because they knew this family really needed it. (Also, I suggested that this person be reassigned as my Home Teacher, but that didn’t happen. Rats.)
– When my kids’ youth leaders just showed up for my kids’ school performances and to cheer them on. That still brings a tear to my eye.
– When I needed a babysitter in PA for my HS reunion (after being out of state for 20 years), and I just called up a random ward member who referred me to a woman I didn’t even know who agreed to do it, and we’ve been friends ever since.
– When a guy in our ward gave his talk and it was at least 50% about tacos.
My “you lost me” regularly occurring things: When swearing is labeled as bad due to “swear not at all” being taken out of context from the Sermon on the Mount. I believe this refers to things like “swearing on your mother’s name to avenge her”, not the utterance of certain sequences of phonemes.
- There is usually a logical non-sequitur in some talk every General Conference and a number of lesson manuals. I find that GAs often try to support good principles with the wrong scriptures.
- When members of the church suggest that the reason for modesty is to keep the boys’ thoughts clean or to avoid being “walking pornography.” I guess it’s only a “you lost me” now. I would have agreed with it at one point, but I’ve since realized how that perspective can be damaging to YW.
- When “faith without works is dead” is taken too far- suggesting that obedience is the key to salvation. Mormons tend to give precedence to James over Paul instead of reconciling the two. They really are in agreement.
More specific:
My first time through the temple. There were oh so many things that bothered me that first time. Some still do.
- One time, a bishopric member made a sweeping condemnation on texting abbreviated swear words (like “sick AF”) and later proceeded to call something “frickin awesome”
- My mission president’s wife had a vendetta against sarcasm. She would indoctrinate all of the new missionaries on the dangers of sarcasm.
- My mission introduced a rule about a year in where you could not high five people of the opposite sex. It was dumb and I regret following it.
- My worst mission companion. He was extremely self-righteous, yet selectively obedient to the weirdest things, and had really strange ideas of how to work the area. I found that the best way to avoid conflict was just to let him take the lead, but that would drive me insane too. His only redeeming quality was his talent for playing the piano- improvised or with sheet music. That was an awful transfer that was only made tolerable because of his piano skills, the other missionaries around, and the family I lived with. My successor has horror stories from the three transfers they were together.
I guess there is a concept that lost me as soon as I could think critically: and that was the LDS perspective that eating the forbidden fruit was part of God’s plan. How could it be part of his plan if he commanded them not to eat it? No answer has ever satisfied me, aside from the Adam and Eve story being allegorical. Even still, it’s a headscratcher.
As for the inverse, more positive:
On one occasion, I walked out of priesthood when the teacher refused to end the lesson on time after I told him that it was time to end. I was particularly stressed from class and fed up with Provo culture at the time, but a few people praised my boldness a couple weeks later. The EQP/My HT talked to me about it later that day in a non-condemning way and told me he would work on helping to make sure priesthood ended on time in the future. It got a lot better after that incident.
- I am still, to this day, impressed with my Sophomore-year seminary teacher’s logical and technical understanding of doctrines and scriptures. He was a massive influence on my testimony and understanding of doctrine. Looking back, I would guess that he was at Fowler Stage 5 for all the time I’ve really known him. I’m good friends with his oldest son and middle son->daughter (yes, she is the same transgender friend I have mentioned occasionally).
- A certain elder I lived with during my third transfer on my mission. He was against the anti-sarcasm indoctrination session and even argued with Pres’s wife during the presentation.
- One of my ZLs during the transfer when I had my worst companion. He was exactly the refuge I needed. He swore a little and otherwise kept it real. I was really able to relax with him and we had some fantastic pillow talk on transfers.
- My best friend. He’s still more orthodox than I am, but he was about the only thing keeping me sane during my last year in Provo. We made up “Nephi Joseph Hyrum Smith Williams”; a caricature of the most self-righteous parts of Mormon culture, a Peter Priesthood times a thousand; and made up 6 short videos about his escapades and a music video summarizing it all. When we showed the
music videoThere’s probably a lot more positives, but I’ll call that good for now.
You lost me… a) When I learned about the Mountain Meadow Massacre on the front step of a non-member in a door approach.
b) When my Stake President and Bishop told me to stay at home since I didn’t have money for a mission.
c) When LDS Social Services told me there was too much risk of infidelity on my part, so they wouldn’t approve an adoption at the last step.
d) When a woman in our Ward, a faithful TR holder distributed a hateful letter about me to the entire Ward leadership.
e) When our Stake Presidency gave me a handshake and then didn’t release me for another two months.
You Got Me At Hello
1. A university professor who thought I had potential and trained me to be a leader, and get helped me get into one of the best universities for my field in North America. He was a member of our Ward.
2. My first temple experience — I was awash in the Spirit for 3 days solid.
3. When our zone achieved their baptismal goes in two different months on my mission.
4. A talk I gave in Sacrament meeting that rivetted and touched a lot of people there.
5. When the church decided to focus on improving teaching through Teachers Councils and use of Sunday lesson time for training.
I can’t think of much else, but these things stand out…
SD
You lost me at – Whenever I learned ______ about Brigham Young (seriously, everything)
– Repeated cases of the distortion, maipulation, and concealment of truth (sometimes, to the point of downright lying) by Church leadership
– Since childhood, the rejection of scientific principles (evolution, age of the earth, global warming, etc.) on religious grounds
– The second counsellor in the bishopbric had several positions a dream job open up in a lab he managed, which matched my qualifiactions perfectly. After being in the ward two years, continuously looking for employment, I discovered the bishop forgot to mention to anyone that I was looking for work (I talked to him about it, on many occasions). After the positions were already taken, in talking with the second counsellor, he told me, “We wound up hiring a couple of people who were pretty unqualified. If I had known you were looking for work, I would’ve hired you on the spot.” Just one example, of many times where I felt the Church failed me in temporal welfare.
– When my Bishop condemned me for “not believing” one moment, and then condemned me for “not forgiving” Joseph Smith’s “mistakes”.
You had me at hello
– When a random guy from EQ took me to lunch in the first month of moving into the ward.
– When a home teacher back in college went out of his way to be my friend, and help me through some very tough times.
– As a missionary, when I first met my Mission President. I’d never felt so much Christ-like love.
– As a teen, when we had the most inclusive YM/YW group I’ve ever seen, as well as some of the most incredible youth leaders.
– When I met my wife, who absolutely radiates with goodness and compassion.
-That time when Uchtdorf… (seriously, everything)
you lost me at: polygamy, especially after I read Annie Clark Tanner’s autobiography
BYU falsely accused my niece’s husband for fraud and had his membership record annotated without there being a formal counsel held.
Joseph Smith and Fanny Alger, et al.
Modesty for pre-schoolers
My second mission president, BKP
you had me at hello:
When my first mission president, Truman Madsen recognized me and called me by name after ten years when we bumped into each other in the SL airport.
Members of my ward.
Every bishop I’ve ever had.
You lost me at: – Prop 8. When I participated in the Yes on 8 movement in California, I felt very powerful. But as I matured, and the more I thought about it, the more it bothered me. The idea of taking away agency in something that didn’t hurt others just felt so so wrong.
– being secretive about finances. And finding out that the church used to disclose their finances in detail until I think it was 1957?
– not telling members about the negative parts of church history and painting everything in a very black and white light when everything was very very grey and all over the place.
– telling members to differentiate between culture and doctrine, when culture makes up the majority of the church rules and GAs are also affected by church culture.
You had me at hello with:
– the members in my recent wards
– youth dances (miss those)
– a lot of Uchtdorfs recent talks
You lost me at: * Polygamy
* Prop 8 – how can we be Christian and care for others when color and orientation appear to matter?
* Women and Scripture – if God has always loved his daughters, why are there few examples, and the few conversations in the scriptures to women (talking to Emma for example) are muddled at best.
You found me at:
* My parent’s ward took in 7 of my siblings for a period of about 4 months with no strings attached over the Christmas holidays instead of letting them go into the foster care system. Not only that, but all the families involved coordinated a Christmas brunch for my parents and siblings so that we could see each other.
* In our reverse trek, we felt the Spirit guiding us through the selling of our house, crossing the plains, helping us find a job, a branch, and a house. The entire search was hot/cold – in that we felt the Spirit guiding us closer to our eventual branch, the timing of selling the house and finding the job.
* Our current branch family. We have an adopted grandma to our children because she needed more grandkids – and she is their grandmother. Another couple have taken us under their wing and helped us to be better parents.
* In my grief over losing a baby, there were others there to give me a hug as needed, but I felt sustained by and strength that was not my own that I drew on as needed.
Just posted this at BCC: https://bycommonconsent.com/2017/09/11/you-lost-me-tension-in-the-church/ I’m finding people’s stories of what pulls them back in to be inspiring!
Ugh, by the second comment, I’m being told my list of reasons to stay isn’t good enough:
Quote:I find it interesting that there wasn’t a single spiritual experience that pulled the author back.
I was uncharacteristically defensive in my reply:
Quote:James Stone: consider yourself on my “You Lost Me” list. Officially. I suggest you examine why you find it necessary to criticize anyone else’s reasons for sticking with the church as not being “good enough,” as you imply. I have many more experiences than are on this list, including ones related to testimony. I don’t need to cast my pearls before you for dissection.
You don’t know me. You don’t know my story.
This is why we can’t have nice things, folks.
Quote:This is why we can’t have nice things, folks.
Ugh. Seriously. I swear commenters can spoil anything. Just ask Lindsey Sterling.
And this winner on my Hawkgrrrl FB page: Quote:So, let’s see. People sometimes say and do hurtful things so God isn’t real and the Church is needless. Leaders set policy with which we disagree, or don’t know all the facts about, so we don’t need organizations or religion. Did I understand this argument accurately?
To which I replied somewhat defensively that he obviously hadn’t read the damn post!hawkgrrrl wrote:
And this winner on my Hawkgrrrl FB page:Quote:So, let’s see. People sometimes say and do hurtful things so God isn’t real and the Church is needless. Leaders set policy with which we disagree, or don’t know all the facts about, so we don’t need organizations or religion. Did I understand this argument accurately?
To which I replied somewhat defensively that he obviously hadn’t read the damn post!
“I think you misunderstood what you’re trying to say.” That’s what I’d like to tell them.
One of my pet peeves is people who lack the comprehension skills necessary to understand how bad their comprehension skills are. 😈 Curtis Sunshine wrote:
One of my pet peeves is people who lack the comprehension skills necessary to understand how bad their comprehension skills are.😈
I don’t understand what you are saying!
😆 hawkgrrrl wrote:
I find it interesting that there wasn’t a single spiritual experience that pulled the author back.
Quote:Sorry if I sound self-righteous but to me it is about the Holy Ghost and the connection to God. I have never been accepted by the LDS Church community (single, childless, fat, middle-aged, work full time, liberal, democrat) and at this point, couldn’t care less. I can’t imagine making the sacrifices in time, money, effort and lifestyle if it was just about the community. There has to be more to it for me to stick around.
I tend to think that these two comments come from the same camp. I think that the general idea is that the LDS church and its priesthood ordinances are the only way. We Mormons tend to expect spiritual experiences to help confirm that this church is the only valid stairway to heaven.
People from that background are uncomfortable with what appears to be a cost benefit analysis because to them any injustice, any sacrifice, any offence is to be endured as the price of exaltation.
The “You lost me” article seems to describe an individual that was lost little by little (death by 1000 cuts). For me, my FC came in one huge catalyst moment when my expectations/worldview did not match my tragically undeniable reality (my stillborn child) and the disconnect broke me.
For me it feel like a somewhat different path than the accumulation of “you lost me” moments.
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