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One more thing, on several commenters “You had me at hello” lists was the BoM. I am curious what is meant by that or what specifically about the BoM keeps them engaged at church. Even if you don’t believe in the historicity of the Bom, there is still some good advice in it. And I do feel the Spirit when I read parts of it. There is a lot of chaff too, but for the most part, I like the content better than the Bible. So the negative, as in very negative at the time I learned of these things: -A cultish mission culture. We had a mission conference that was on Skype since we had numerous islands and nations in our mission. The mission president asked to whom we were accountable. I said “Christ of course.” He wasn’t satisfied with that answer. After other people said “Heavenly Father”, that wasn’t good enough apparently. His wife then said “we are accountable to Joseph Smith the prophet and the seer. We answer to him prior to entering the kingdom of God.”
“Say what?” I said. That got me a phone call after the conference. I still don’t believe that to this day. Not at all. Only God could change my mind on that.
-Bashing. I am, unfortunately, a very combative person by nature. I like a good fight if the cause feels just. I had no problem showing other combative people how wrong they were. We even had a reputation at one point where we were avoided from all Jehovah Witnesses after we had a ‘successful’ bash with one of the veteran missionaries. Oh the pride I had, and still have. Anyway, one day, I bit off a little more than I could true. I had confidence, but that was about it. My mission companion and I went up to our family who was investigating. There was a stranger there too. A large, old man who seemed innocuous. He said “mind if I ask a few questions?” He was a pastor, and a well versed one. He kept me on the defensive the whole time, was witty, and astute. From this discussion, I heard that Joseph Smith married others’ wives, was a Free Mason, and had weird theories about God. This was a painful time as I found these things were true. My cause came into question…
-Rough Stone Rolling. It was so amazing. But so sad. Everything I had learned as a child came crashing down. I realized just then and there how fragile belief is, and how volatile trust in man can be. The war hero Pappy Boyington said a quote that sums up how I felt about Joseph Smith after I read this book—”show me a hero, and I will show you a bum!”
The positives:
-Patriarchal Blessing. I will never deny, on January of 2009, just how strong the Spirit was. Would anyone deny the existence of a supreme being had they felt what I did on that day? I don’t know…
-Mission miracle. 23 November 2013. I remember it like yesterday. I will give this story in more detail as appropriate, but God let me witness, and even be a part of, a healing by the laying on of hands. Never before had I felt the Spirit so strong, and I don’t know if I ever will again. Why would he let someone as vile as me have an experience like that? To this day I am puzzled, but again, who could deny there is a God? I don’t know if there would be much for atheism if everyone had something like this. History, as per scriptural history anyway, shows otherwise.
-Book of Mormon. I love it. I don’t like the culture. I don’t like D&C yet. I don’t like church policy. I don’t like the vainness of everybody outcompeting each other. But I do love, love, love this book. The reason is because the principles therein seem to resonate so well on building a foundation on Christ’s atonement. I wish we knew more about its historicity, but I will take what I know so far.
I sometimes wonder how I felt such amazing spiritual experiences (though far and few in between), despite all of this weird baggage connected to the church. I don’t know, but truth is truth. These experiences were incontrovertibly true. I felt it so powerfully, as to expunge all doubt about God’s existence and love. That’s why I will stay in the church, based on these experiences, but I still think some things are super messed up in church. That’s why I am grateful to meet new friends on this forum here, who speak openly and who teach others their insights.
Falcon20Commander wrote:
-Rough Stone Rolling. It was so amazing. But so sad. Everything I had learned as a child came crashing down. I realized just then and there how fragile belief is, and how volatile trust in man can be.
I really enjoyed Rough Stone Rolling; I’d be willing to list it as a positive experience for me. It’s one of the few times a faithful leader in the Church has come out open and straight forward about Joseph Smith. I really appreciate Richard Bushman having the courage to write that book. It helped many members to recognize that many of the premises on which they built their faith fell short. They needed to re-evaluate their testimonies. For some, it was strengthening. For others, they broke away. I can live with the Church having a darker history, with Leaders who make mistakes. But what I cannot tolerate, and don’t know if I can ever forgive, is when I am lied to.
dande48 wrote:
Falcon20Commander wrote:
-Rough Stone Rolling. It was so amazing. But so sad. Everything I had learned as a child came crashing down. I realized just then and there how fragile belief is, and how volatile trust in man can be.
I really enjoyed Rough Stone Rolling; I’d be willing to list it as a positive experience for me. It’s one of the few times a faithful leader in the Church has come out open and straight forward about Joseph Smith. I really appreciate Richard Bushman having the courage to write that book. It helped many members to recognize that many of the premises on which they built their faith fell short. They needed to re-evaluate their testimonies. For some, it was strengthening. For others, they broke away. I can live with the Church having a darker history, with Leaders who make mistakes. But what I cannot tolerate, and don’t know if I can ever forgive, is when I am lied to.
The latest quote that really resonates with me is:
Quote:I don’t expect church leaders to be perfect, but I expect them to be honest.
At this point in my life, it feels to me the biggest betrayal has been by church leaders. Even more than the scummy CEO that came in, burned the furniture to keep the place running, reduced everyone’s salary, got caught paying a hooker, and left with a golden parachute. Within a short period of time everyone knew we were dealing with the devil and he even said that I only see the world in numbers, so if you are on the part of the spreadsheet that needs to be cut, you could have the best resume, but sorry – you are gone. Done deal.@dande48 You are right. I am so grateful I read RSR. I wouldn’t have it any other way. I would do it again, and share the knowledge with anyone who could benefit from it. The knowledge therein truly empowered me to understand some of the truth of our lively history. As I read it though, I felt sick to my stomach seeing how Joseph seemed to decline as he matured in his calling as a prophet. Prophets usually get better in my opinion, not worse. I haven’t counted out the hypothesis that God removed him before more damage would be done…
@hawkgrrrrrl
I checked your link to your Facebook page. One of my Facebook friends follows you—my mother. Small world huh? Who would’ve thought.
That is so interesting about your mother following me! Yeah, I don’t really know who most of the ones that follow me are. It’s just something that has happened over time. Falcon20Commander wrote:
As I read it though, I felt sick to my stomach seeing how Joseph seemed to decline as he matured in his calling as a prophet. Prophets usually get better in my opinion, not worse. I haven’t counted out the hypothesis that God removed him before more damage would be done…
JS seems to have been a born innovator. He never seemed content to leave the church in the status quo. Many times he complained about the resistance that members gave to his new innovations. He also seemed to have a growing sense of hubris as time went on. I believe that he believed that the thoughts in his mind came from God.
Then he was killed and BY came in like a freight train. I am just now coming to realize how the beginning of BY’s administration seems very similar to a military coup. BY systematically removed or disempowered everybody (or church office) that had a competing claim on power. It was awful and calculating but it worked. He held the bulk of the church together under the rule of his iron fist.
It is possible that God used JS and his gifts to start the religion and BY with a very different set of gifts to hold it together. Regardless, we can see how they both acted in ways that did not seem appropriate for men of God.
I think it’s fascinating how diverse this forum is when it comes to these things. “You Lost Me” moments for one person might be “You had me at hello” moments for others. And yet we can all come together and proverbially enjoy a beer together. Wouldn’t it be great if this was true for the church at large? Beefster wrote:
I think it’s fascinating how diverse this forum is when it comes to these things. “You Lost Me” moments for one person might be “You had me at hello” moments for others. And yet we can all come together and proverbially enjoy a beer together. Wouldn’t it be great if this was true for the church at large?
A hearty AMEN.
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