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Paulista, I hope my comment didn’t seem to dismiss your concern. I didn’t mean to imply that at all. I have complete sympathy for those who didn’t know something – and I have zero agreement with anyone who says everyone should have known about everything. I hope that is clear to everyone from my first comment – and many others over the years. I apologize if that wasn’t clear in my second comment.
Your post doesn’t come across as attacking in any way, and it is completely fine for this forum.
NTM, First, I’ll reiterate what others have said: most of us have been through or are currently going through something similar. Although there were many things I did know, I can distinctly remember the surprise and sort of disappointment I felt when I learned that the papyri from which sprang the BofA had not actually been destroyed in a fire, but that they are extant and that they don’t match JS’s translation in any way. Probably everyone here has that feeling of “I didn’t know” about something. There are several others for me, but the BofA was the first one; that experience was decades ago, but still leaves a bitter aftertaste.
One thing that I think is very important in our effort (sometimes struggle) to StayLDS is to get to a place where we just don’t give a rat’s a## what other people have to say about us. I am trying to live my life as sincerely and uprightly as I know how. If someone else thinks I don’t pray enough, don’t fast enough, don’t exercise faith enough, or don’t
enough, it has no relevance, because they don’t know me or my situation. I try very hard to treat them the way I hope they treat me, but if I don’t receive in kind, it doesn’t really alter my approach; I will continue to strive internally to live my life in a way that is representative of my values. If you are satisfied that your reason for not knowing about the seerstone is not due to any defect on your part, then don’t let what other people have to say about it affect your perception of yourself. Some of this stuff is out there to some degree or another, but it’s not like it was ever included in a Church lesson manual for SS, PM, RS or YM/YW. Maybe some apologetic discussion at the CES level, but as a matter of Sunday services, the Church has never said anything about these things.
For me, it’s easy to be excited about the new openness of the Church. That’s because from my perspective, I had my faith crisis long ago and have been frustrated that the Church has (previously) held this information close to the vest. Now that the Church is being more open, it helps alleviate that concern. But I recognize that for you, the experience is different. The new facts being put out by the Church are contributing to your faith crisis and there is no way around it, faith crisis is a terrible experience. I have often explained that I didn’t go looking for it, it hit me like a sucker punch to the gut.
You are expressing my same experiences and frustrations, and as a result, I can no longer trust the church and the leadership at the top. Initially, I was in a panic because it all seemed like a lie. Even now, the Ensign article about the seer stone is not trustworthy to me. Even after talking about the seer stone and what it was used for, the article includes only the artwork that we’ve grown up with…the artwork that is incorrect. On top of that, article throws the artists under the bus. I could perhaps start trusting the church again if they would just be honest and stop spinning the stories and stop telling us that we should have known.
I feel so heartbroken for the thousands of faithful members (including myself) that have done everything asked of us but have been completely blindsided by the church essays and the coming forth of the seer stone. It’s a lot to handle…the feelings of betrayal and the feeling of being played like a fool.
I hope that all of us can find peace and comfort from the One that we can always trust, no matter whether we choose to stay, or temporarily step back, or ultimately leave. I’m stepping back for now, and it has taken almost a year for me to make that decision. I’m still keeping in touch with my beloved ward members by continuing to visit teach and be visited. I need time to heal and to think and to focus on my relationship with God. I have to put the church on the shelf at least for now.
It helps a lot to know that you’re not alone, and you’re not crazy.
Old-Timer wrote:We don’t have anything that says he always used the seer stone or that he always worked in any one way, especially when there was a drawn curtain between him and the scribe, which was the bulk of the time.
Actually, the current research of the relevant witnesses concludes that only the seer stone was used for the entire BoM. The Nephite Interpreters were used for the 116 pages but abandoned thereafter. I can look up the references for that later, but I’ve heard that stated now more than once by prominent BoM scholars.
christx83 wrote:It helps a lot to know that you’re not alone, and you’re not crazy.
Since people don’t always get around to a formal introduction, just want to say hello and welcome now.
:wave: Reading and sharing here has helped me so much, and I hope the same for you.christx83 wrote:You are expressing my same experiences and frustrations, and as a result, I can no longer trust the church and the leadership at the top. Initially, I was in a panic because it all seemed like a lie. Even now, the Ensign article about the seer stone is not trustworthy to me. Even after talking about the seer stone and what it was used for, the article includes only the artwork that we’ve grown up with…the artwork that is incorrect. On top of that, article throws the artists under the bus.
I could perhaps start trusting the church again if they would just be honest and stop spinning the stories and stop telling us that we should have known.
I feel so heartbroken for the thousands of faithful members (including myself) that have done everything asked of us but have been completely blindsided by the church essays and the coming forth of the seer stone. It’s a lot to handle…the feelings of betrayal and the feeling of being played like a fool.
I hope that all of us can find peace and comfort from the One that we can always trust, no matter whether we choose to stay, or temporarily step back, or ultimately leave. I’m stepping back for now, and it has taken almost a year for me to make that decision. I’m still keeping in touch with my beloved ward members by continuing to visit teach and be visited. I need time to heal and to think and to focus on my relationship with God. I have to put the church on the shelf at least for now.
It helps a lot to know that you’re not alone, and you’re not crazy.
Welcome to the forum. Focusing on our individual relationships with God and/or Jesus Christ is one way to move past some of these issues. The seer stone, for instance, has nothing to do with either of them or the gospel itself. There are no secrets the church is hiding about God.
I agree the article and the essays could do more, but I think I understand why they don’t. My missionary son and I recently had a discussion about this very topic. His MP is on the progressive side and he gives a list of suggested reading to departed missionaries which includes Rough Stone Rolling and Crucible of Doubt. He also discusses the “tough topics” in zone conferences. My son says he is often amazed at how many missionaries don’t know some of the things (like Mountain Meadows, Joesph’s polygamy, and the seer stone) and that the MP often has to individually counsel some missionaries after he gives some lessons. My son has asked further questions of him sometimes and he once told him he’s afraid to share everything he knows because he’s afraid of causing faith crisis in some of the missionaries. Individually he will give missionaries further information, though. I think the church as a whole is in the same boat – they are afraid that dumping it all at once will do more damage than good. I understand and agree with that idea. I am also confident that there is some milk before meat mentality and that more information will be made available in the future as things like the essay and this article are digested. The thing that frustrates me most about these things is that the church does not herald them more. This article being in the Ensign is a good step, much better than the essays which can be hard to find.
Trust being hurt or even for some completely shredded is a serious repurcussion of this while thing. Trusting again, like a spouse who has lost the trust of the other, isn’t impossible. But it takes effort and a choice to do so.
To trust again, one has to first answer…
Is it worth it?
If yes…then it will take some time. It just will.
Grudunza wrote:Old-Timer wrote:We don’t have anything that says he always used the seer stone or that he always worked in any one way, especially when there was a drawn curtain between him and the scribe, which was the bulk of the time.
Actually, the current research of the relevant witnesses concludes that only the seer stone was used for the entire BoM. The Nephite Interpreters were used for the 116 pages but abandoned thereafter. I can look up the references for that later, but I’ve heard that stated now more than once by prominent BoM scholars.
I had read that the Interpreters were retained by the angel after the incident with the 116 pages, leaving Joseph to come up with a different translation method. Unfortunately I do not have a source so I would be doubly interested in knowing yours.
My understanding is that some sort of curtain was most often not used except to shield the translation from household visitors that were in other parts of the small house (the house does not appear to have been equipped with functional interior doors and the blanket/curtain appears to have provided a modicum of privacy.)
From the Ensign article:
Quote:Artist’s depiction of Joseph Smith and a scribe translating with a blanket between them. Although no blanket is mentioned in most descriptions of the translation process, one was apparently used at an early point to shield the scribe from a view of the plates, spectacles, or breastplate. During the latter part of the translation effort, a blanket may have been used to shield the translator and scribe from other individuals curious to observe the translation.
This is just one reference, but I also heard a podcast about a year ago that was very detailed about the various witnesses, and that they all agreed that the seer stone was the only instrument used for the BoM (after the 116 pages): http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Seer_stones/%22Rock_in_hat%22_used_for_Book_of_Mormon_translation — The Nephite interpreters, therefore, were yet another set of seer stones. It is unsurprising that Joseph would be completely comfortable with these instruments, given his experience with the use of seer stones up to that time.
Latter-day Saints associate the term “Urim and Thummim” with these interpreters. Gardner notes,
We all know that Joseph used the Urim and Thummim to translate the Book of Mormon—except he didn’t. The Book of Mormon mentions interpreters, but not the Urim and Thummim. It was the Book of Mormon interpreters which were given to Joseph with the plates. When Moroni took back the interpreters after the loss of the 116 manuscript pages, Joseph completed the translation with one of his seer stones. Until after the translation of the Book of Mormon, the Urim and Thummim belonged to the Bible and the Bible only. [51] The Urim and Thummim became part of the story when it was presented within and to the Great Tradition. Eventually, even Joseph Smith used Urim and Thummim indiscriminately as labels generically representing either the Book of Mormon interpreters or the seer stone used during translation. [52] [13]
After the loss of the 116 pages, contemporary accounts are very clear that Joseph continued the translation using his seer stone. In later years, the term “Urim and Thummim” was retroactively applied to both the Nephite interpreters and to Joseph’s seer stone. Thus the use of “Urim and Thummim” tends to obscure the fact that two different instruments were employed.
Thanks, Grudunza. That is a good clarification. Heber13 wrote:To trust again, one has to first answer…
Is it worth it?
If yes…then it will take some time. It just will.
People in distress, asking, “Is it worth it?” do not want to be met with black/white vibes from members/leaders/church designed to trigger guilt, fear or the feeling of being dismissed. Things like, “You’ve made solemn covenants!” Or, “What about your eternal family?” Or, “What does this matter to your salvation?” Be humble, for goodness’ sake. I think the response will be better. I wish this article explained the history and personalities behind the past curriculum decisions, or, at the very least, gave clear signals that this is SO NOT THE TIME to say, “You should have known.”Ann wrote:SO NOT THE TIME to say, “You should have known.”
I also don’t really like the “Think of the example to your children you are setting.”That’s so not the right thing to hear that when in a crisis either…because I keep thinking the best example I can give my kids is being authentic and speaking up when something bothers me, even if I am wrong and learn later…better to be genuine than to just bury the feelings deep deep down…what kind of example is that???
I much prefer my kids to learn there are problems sometimes. And we deal with them. And it’s not always rosy, but it should always be as kind and loving as possible, even if not positive.
Humor also helps diffuse some tension during a crisis. When appropriate. (Right nibbler?)
Heber13 wrote:Humor also helps diffuse some tension during a crisis. When appropriate. (Right nibbler?)
Response 1: I’ll let you know when I hear or say something funny.
:think: Response 2: If there’s an
inappropriatetime for humor I don’t want to be around for it. 
Take your pick.
I get ticked off what anyone says “you should have known”. That statement is rubbish. I came across this on Facebook: 
[img]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-55rmlS52U58/VctfFkozvoI/AAAAAAAAAzM/aZlMgXmZilw/s1600/stone2.jpg [/img] I posted a comment saying, “I wasn’t born yet in 1974 so I didn’t read that. Sarcasm regarding struggling or exiting members doesn’t do any good.” I actually did know about seer stones when I was a teenager, but I don’t remember how I knew. It certainly wasn’t from any lesson taught in church or seminary. My second point was more important.
Any sarcastic or flippant remarks or memes regarding struggling or exiting members don’t doanygood. Has anything published by the church said anything like “you should have known”? I don’t think so, but it has pointed to previously published accounts of some things. To me, that means the church is saying, “We didn’t hide it.” However, I think the church has disseminated accounts of history that paint an inaccurate picture.
Either way (U&T or seerstone) I still think the BofM is boring (my personal opinion).
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