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Well, I have a holiday this week, and I’m using the time to reflect upon and reorder my life. Its partly why I’ve been posting so much lately. I realize that yes, I had a strong spiritual experience that convinced me God exists when I was a teenager. I don’t question that. But I have to confess, I never really had a spiritual witness of Christ. I even remember telling the minister (non-LDS) that convinced me to believe in God that I didn’t get the whole Savior testimony. He got kind of angry with me saying “Why are you confused????” almost impatiently – so the search ended there.
The missionaries taught me about the Law of Justice and Mercy, which explained the “why” of Christ, but to date, I do not have what I would call a testimony of Christ.
You read about Enos, and others who felt burdens lifted because of Christ’s sacrifice, but I have never felt that sense of forgiveness or burdens of sin lifte d– even after fasting once for 3 solid days about something I did that I felt badly about. I do find his words inspiring, and largely, good advice to live by, and have an intellectual respect for his life, but as a deep, burning testimony — nothing.
So, I would like to ask you all — why do you believe in Christ, and what was the main testimony-building experience(s) that led you to have a testimony of Him as a Savior (if you do).
My testimony of Christ is ever evolving, and has sometimes “devolved.” Early in my church life I was very much as you describe – I believed there was a Heavenly Father (and pretty much everything else the church teaches about Heavenly Father) but I had not had a spiritual witness of any sort about Christ. This was also true during my mission – while I believed in Christ from an intellectual point of view and it all fit with the “plan of salvation,” I did not spiritually “know” Jesus is the Christ. I did have an incident in my 20s where I felt that I had committed a serious sin, and upon repentance I did end up with a spiritual witness but no feeling like a burden was lifted or anything like that, rather a simple calm assurance that Jesus was indeed the Christ. So fast forward 30 and after an extended period of inactivity in the church where I questioned everything, including the very existence of God, I do have a testimony of Christ – but perhaps not the same as the average member or maybe even the average Christian. Frankly I’m not so sure about the whole virgin birth thing, however I do believe Jesus was chosen (at least) and may have been the son of God depending on one’s point of view. I do believe he was at least inspired of God and probably received revelation. I do not necessarily believe he led a sinless life but I do believe he somehow did make it possible for us to be forgiven of sins and be resurrected and I do believe he was resurrected. I believe Joseph Smith saw Jesus and Heavenly Father (in vision, not physically) and I do believe Jesus will return (and I’m actually open to the idea the second coming has already happened). I don’t “ know” any of this stuff, and frankly I don’t think anyone else knows it either. I believe it because of the calm assurance I get from what I think is the influence Holy Ghost, and this is especially strong to me when certain hymns are sung. The Holy Ghost thing is a whole other topic, but I have come to realize that when people talk about God they are almost always really talking about the Holy Ghost – which explains a lot about our Christian brothers’ and sisters’ views about God.
My testimony: A bit about my experience with the Mormons. I’m Jewish. Met a Mormon for the first time in the military. Met several more and learned that Mormons raise up extraordinary kids. I spent time with those young men and women and learned that they had something that I didn’t even have the vocabulary to describe (the light of Christ) and I wanted it. I was baptized on the strength of knowing that it was obviously a Good thing though I was far from being able to say that I knew it was God’s Church on earth.
Shortly after the military I was called to serve a mission and I explained to my Bishop the limitations of my testimony. I just couldn’t go out and proclaim that the Church was the only true church without something more definite from God. They called me anyway and assured me that the knowledge would come. It did, in miraculous ways over the first several months of serving in France (about 15 years after Romney).
I consider myself particularly stiff necked. That is to say, tone deaf to the things of the spirit. I miss most of the subtle spiritual things that my wife takes great joy in. I usually hear only the loudest and clearest of promptings. I also have a terrible ear for music and no singing talent. After 30 years of my wife dragging me to Choir Practice every week I’m getting a little better. I’m also getting better at the spiritual stuff. You improve when you work at it.
SilentDawning wrote:why do you believe in Christ, and what was the main testimony-building experience(s) that led you to have a testimony of Him as a Savior
For me I was reading the Book of Mormon a long time ago and I had a very strong feeling that the verse I read about Jesus being the Savior was true. I’ve based my entire testimony on that feeling that Jesus is the Savior. I haven’t had many spiritual experiences but that was one.
An interesting corollary – to me – is that my testimony is of Christ, not necessarily of other things. Since then it’s been a long, evolving process from believing every thing said in general conference is literally true, to believing there’s a lot more room in Heavenly Father’s kingdom than we think.
SilentDawning – I am a life time member of the church which makes my experience a bit different. For me my first spiritual/testimony/experience was Christ centered. The first family home evening lesson I taught, with the help of my mom, was the parable of The Good Samaritan. We read it together, my mom taught me about Christ and his style of teaching, I made cut outs for it and planned the lesson. This event was probably additionally nurtured at church, but I can’t remember an instance. However my anchor to Christ came moments after I was baptized. Standing in the little spot, dripping wet, waiting for my mom – a prayer, a pledge, a covenant, a wish – I don’t know what applies best – rose up out of me. I wanted to be like Him, with Him, I wanted to make it to Him. He was my fulfillment. Again I can’t say that I brought it on, but it arrived and was real.
Because of that I spent a long time, even as an active member having Christ as my God. I don’t even remember bristling when the first vision accounts had them separate. To me there could be 50 of them – Christ was still first.
Looking at my faith transition now, that is the core of my struggle, my Christ – the one I envisioned, read about, prayed to/through, etc. seems to not be the same for everyone in my religious community. Sometimes He is totally exempt. I get angry, defensive, heartbroken, sorrowful. I don’t fully understand the atonement, whether through scripture or church teaching, but I read His life, I read the words recorded about his public works and addresses and I am inspired. I am no where near him, but I believe if people spent more time “Trying To Be Like Jesus” – especially the scriptural Jesus, there would be so much more joy, help, hope, genuine love, caring.
Will I be a God – maybe, maybe not. But God is far away, I have few written words or images of him – can I try and desire to be Christs? Yes. So I am testing it out, trying on the teachings, studying the life, looking for ways to emulate and hoping I come up with a win for everyone.
The part that gets me is that I believed wholeheartedly in all the miracles, the bigger than life experiences of being a member of the Lord’s church, the spiritual experiences at church. All because Christ was at the helm (I accepted Him on the basis of intellect, as I said earlier). But then, the church acted like any other temporal organization. I think I had an assumption that somehow, with Christ at the helm, the church could stick to pure righteousness and pure pursuit of its values and somehow, stand apart from other organizations and non-profits. Somehow it would transcend the world’s preoccupation with money, leadership by management (rather than pure leadership by leadership) etcetera.
I think the fact that the church is just as mired in the temporal preoccupations of the world as any other corporation or non-profit made it hard for me to believe Christ was at the helm. I said hard to believe, not impossible. I’m sure there are flaws in this thinking, but this is what I think I assumed for a long, long time. Until leaders and the services attached to the church shattered that belief.
And here I sit.
Can’t help you on this SD. Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
mom3 wrote:SilentDawning – I am a life time member of the church which makes my experience a bit different. For me my first spiritual/testimony/experience was Christ centered.
The first family home evening lesson I taught, with the help of my mom, was the parable of The Good Samaritan. We read it together, my mom taught me about Christ and his style of teaching, I made cut outs for it and planned the lesson. This event was probably additionally nurtured at church, but I can’t remember an instance. However my anchor to Christ came moments after I was baptized. Standing in the little spot, dripping wet, waiting for my mom – a prayer, a pledge, a covenant, a wish – I don’t know what applies best – rose up out of me. I wanted to be like Him, with Him, I wanted to make it to Him. He was my fulfillment. Again I can’t say that I brought it on, but it arrived and was real.
Because of that I spent a long time, even as an active member having Christ as my God. I don’t even remember bristling when the first vision accounts had them separate. To me there could be 50 of them – Christ was still first.
Looking at my faith transition now, that is the core of my struggle, my Christ – the one I envisioned, read about, prayed to/through, etc. seems to not be the same for everyone in my religious community. Sometimes He is totally exempt. I get angry, defensive, heartbroken, sorrowful. I don’t fully understand the atonement, whether through scripture or church teaching, but I read His life, I read the words recorded about his public works and addresses and I am inspired. I am no where near him, but I believe if people spent more time “Trying To Be Like Jesus” – especially the scriptural Jesus, there would be so much more joy, help, hope, genuine love, caring.
Will I be a God – maybe, maybe not. But God is far away, I have few written words or images of him – can I try and desire to be Christs? Yes. So I am testing it out, trying on the teachings, studying the life, looking for ways to emulate and hoping I come up with a win for everyone.
I really love this post.
I see nothing wrong with your version of the Gospel. So you fixate on Jesus, not a terrible fixation to have. Christ did say
“Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.”As far also I’m concerned, your relationship with Jesus puts you way ahead of me regardless of how well I can articulate the distinction and relationship between the two. And nobody fully understands the atonement.
SilentDawning wrote:
But then, the church acted like any other temporal organization. I think I had an assumption that somehow, with Christ at the helm, the church could stick to pure righteousness and pure pursuit of its values and somehow, stand apart from other organizations and non-profits.Agreed. For me this is a primary cause of my faith transition. We have bold statements about the Lord not permitting the church go astray and have heard them since primary age. Trancendent leadership is also implicit every time we vote to sustain the Q15.
I simply love the concept of an Atonement that is focused on eternal growth and being/becoming gods, based on eternal grace. For a long time I’ve had a intellectual/conceptual relationship with Christ: I can understand the teachings, see why the traits he espouses are better than the opposites, etc. But until very recently I’ve never had a experiential relationship with Christ. I firmly believe Alma 32:27 that literally a particle of faith is necessary. That doesn’t always mean that you want to give up how you live your life or how you think currently, but “Hey, could you possibly maybe help me with this because I want to learn of you, but I really don’t see past anything that I have right now. I don’t have anything else to go on and that’s why I’m like this right now, but if there’s something better will you help me to see it?” Seriously, and in my recent experience, this is all it takes for the Atonement to take effect. I have been petrified to let go of some of the things I’ve held onto, and I’ve prayed like that! “Hey, I’m really freaking out here because I really like my ideas right now and I’m not super keen on giving them up. But can you help?” Slowly, and I literally don’t even know how, I have been able to loosen my grasp. I have also been able to develop qualities I couldn’t dream of having. I would see these gifts in others, and want to posses them, but have no idea what to do. Even if I tried to develop them completely on my own, the results were mediocre at best. Shifting my focus in praying to “How do I PERSONALLY exhibit this trait? Will you help me develop this for the benefit of me and your other children because I’m tired of being very human in this specific capacity?” Recognizing that how I develop characteristics will look different from everyone else because we are all different. And it’s cool that I don’t show love or patience exactly like Sally or Bobby, but knowing that how we each exemplify the traits is enough: we don’t need to be carbon copies. I don’t understand HOW the Atonement works, but I have felt it in myself. And as it says in 2 Nephi 9:7, “it must needs be an infinite atonement,” meaning that anyone who has ever or will ever line up to the mindset that allows the power of the Atonement to take place (for an awesome article series about this check out this
http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2012/12/the-wise-man-doubts-ofte/ ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2012/12/the-wise-man-doubts-ofte/ As a side note, addressing how you thought the Church should behave if Christ was truly at the helm, and I don’t mean this question in any derogatory way-I’m simply asking to ask: Even if you have Christ as the center of your life at all times, would that mean that you won’t make ANY mistakes? Or do you think that your mistakes will be “less” because they have a better focus? For me there are only really a few kind of mistakes: those made in ignorance (a VAST majority of people’s mistakes), those made while trying to become better (working with more knowledge, but struggling in the practice because changing is difficult), and those made in open rebellion (meaning you have the knowledge of a principle AND why it needs to be heeded, but you don’t want to so you consciously, continually choose the opposite). I believe Christ and Father are directing this Church. I also believe that they will never violate anyone’s agency so they need to be Master Level Improvisers to be able to jump on any and all opportunities that result from all of our choices. And I try to throw forgiveness and charity into the mix because, really, we are all so human. It gets in the way of a lot, unfortunately. I used to hate people for it, but then I came to the realization that that hatred was a projection of all the times when I hated myself for not meeting my own expectations. So as I’ve been able to lighten up on myself, I’ve been able to do the same for others.
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