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Old-Timer wrote:Quote:
Sometimes, I wish they could feel a crisis of faith just to understand how we feel.
I don’t.
I know what you mean, bridget, and I truly sympathize with the emotion – but I wouldn’t wish a faith crises on anyone, since there is no guarantee how they will emerge from it.
I see the logic here — perhaps a better interpretation of Bridget’s statement is “I wish they had more EMPATHY” — and if that empathy could be achieved WITHOUT having to go through a trial of faith, that would be best — that way they don’t face the risks you mention, Ray.
REading the faith crises of other people here at StayLDS, and their deepest feelings about that crisis, as well as experiencing their good character, spirituality and desires has expanded my own view of members in faith, commitment and acceptance crises. I think such mind-expansion would help local leaders. I think a book entitled “Understanding the Less-Active Member” or “Understanding Members in a Faith-Crisis” would go a long way to helping others. I think key ideas could include:
Quote:1. Members in a crisis (whether a commitment, acceptance or faith crisis) once contributed to their Wards and Stakes like some of the most reliable and active people you can name in your Wards and Stakes now. Some of the most stalwart leaders currently serving along side you, may well end up in a faith-crisis in the future.
2. Many in a spiritual crisis still feel an attachment to the Church, but feel overwhelmed with doubts and concerns that interfere with their Church experience. These concerns cause them a significant amount of emotional turmoil as they try to do what they feel is right.
3. People in a faith-crisis are not completely lost, although their current mental attitudes may cause active members to think they are a lost hope for the time being. Reject this thinking and continue to include them using the level of contact they currently desire — no more.
4. Members in a faith-crisis have diverse needs for emerging from the faith-crisis. This can range from needing open discussions with Church leaders, to being left alone, to getting a close friend, to non-traditional sources of help (like StayLDS). General activation programs may well be ineffective given the diversity of people’s needs during the crisis.
5. Just because a person has a faith-crisis doesn’t mean they have been breaking the commandments. Sometimes faith-crises happen as they are living the gospel in the most committed way. Sometimes the process of seeking a spiritual confirmation can cause the faith-crisis, particularly if no such confirmation is forthcoming after high-levels of commitment and effort. Therefore, people who suffer from crises at Church may well be among some of the very righteous.
6. Sometimes, people in a faith-crisis go even deeper into that crises when Ward leaders treat the people as if they are less active or in an out-group. (I experienced this in my second trial of faith). I was actually willing to do certain things, but people would skip over me because I had this label of being less-active. I could feel it.
7. Seemingly active members in your Wards may be coping with a faith crises as this very moment. When people refuse to do certain things, it may well because they are asked to confront their faith-crisis in a way that is threatening to them.
8. Some members in a faith-crisis see open discussion of their faith crisis as creating huge risks to their acceptance within the Ward, to their marriages, and to their reputations. It’s important to fully accept and love people who share information about their faith-crisis, and to not be offended by it.
9. Standard Mormon Answers to a faith-crisis will not always help peole in a faith-crisis; leaders should strive to understand non-traditional ways of dealing with a faith-crisis and be prepared to help members find the path that works the best for them. This might include believing in the gospel in ways that are foreign to the Church leader.
10. Sometimes crises in the Church are a result of personality traits that present unusual challenges to the member in staying active. These can include items such as a creative mind that resists structure, thinks outside the box, or is characterized by strong tendencies toward independence. Harnessing these strengths with an open mind can do much to help such individuals feel accepted and enthusiastic about their Church experience (that’s me, this last one). Allowing such member to use creative, non-standard methods which are not morally wrong can help them feel enthusiastic and less-frustrated with their Church experience.
11. Learn to diagnose the nature of the person’s crisis — whether born out of faith-related items, lack of acceptance, or challenges to their commitment, even though they have faith. Treating acceptance and commitment crises as faith crises only lessens the power of the SMA’s to the individual. Take time to diagnose the underlying nature of their crisis.
12. Learn how to protect members who are in a crises, lest Wards and Stakes actually deepen the crisis.
I honestly think there is a lot of room for research on intervention strategies (or non-intervention strategies) to help people in the various types of crises. However, this list is meant to simply help leaders develop empathy.
I’m sure we could add more to this list.
I think I would pretty much like to be treated just like I am now. Of course I have become so comfortable in my new skin that I am not so fazed by what people think or say. But then I do not do or say things that are overly conspicuous of my true nature. Cadence wrote:I think I would pretty much like to be treated just like I am now. Of course I have become so comfortable in my new skin that I am not so fazed by what people think or say. But then I do not do or say things that are overly conspicuous of my true nature.
How are you treated right now?
I find it interesting about how different church members opinions are and what we expect of our leaders. I REALLY would just like to be left alone, and fight in Ward Council about giving inactives their space and not to burden them if they have made decisions regarding activity in the church ect. And is seems that BN feels just the opposite, and questions the church leaders because they haven’t shown enough interest and made the effort to talk with them and find out what the issues.
I don’t know. I only know your situation BN, from what you have told us on this site, but if I was one of your church leaders, I would be asking folks at Ward Council to back off and give you some room and time to work through your crisis of faith, and I would feel like I was looking out for you best interest.
bridget_night wrote:Ray, I really don’t wish anyone this kind of pain or crisis of faith either. I just wish they would be more understanding as you said. I guess people like our group would rather know the truth than live in a fantasy world. But, sometimes I do miss the fantasy world.
This is not a crisis of “faith” to me, but more a crisis of “truth”. I do wish all members of the church had all the information and not just what the “Leaders” deem is needed, the white washed version.
I was taught the churches methods for evaluating what is true, and what “truth” is. I taught it for two years straight out of the approved discussions and went back to the MTC to help others learn to teach it, much later when I learned and continue to learn the “dark” side of the church, I use that same method that I was taught by the church to evaluate truth and IMO the church fails the test
f4h1
Maybe so, f4h1 – but does it fail the test if the test is graded on a curve? Just a different way of framing it, but I was in a different church today, and . . . I’ll just refer back to my question. There are great services out there (not the one I attended today), but do the churches pass the test any better than the LDS Church – especially when it comes to the overarching theology?
Kind of depends on the viewpoint of the person who creates the test, I suppose.
SilentDawning wrote:Old-Timer wrote:Quote:Sometimes, I wish they could feel a crisis of faith just to understand how we feel.
I
Quote:1. Members in a crisis (whether a commitment, acceptance or faith crisis) once contributed to their Wards and Stakes like some of the most reliable and active people you can name in your Wards and Stakes now. Some of the most stalwart leaders currently serving along side you, may well end up in a faith-crisis in the future.
2. Many in a spiritual crisis still feel an attachment to the Church, but feel overwhelmed with doubts and concerns that interfere with their Church experience. These concerns cause them a significant amount of emotional turmoil as they try to do what they feel is right.
3. People in a faith-crisis are not completely lost, although their current mental attitudes may cause active members to think they are a lost hope for the time being. Reject this thinking and continue to include them using the level of contact they currently desire — no more.
4. Members in a faith-crisis have diverse needs for emerging from the faith-crisis. This can range from needing open discussions with Church leaders, to being left alone, to getting a close friend, to non-traditional sources of help (like StayLDS). General activation programs may well be ineffective given the diversity of people’s needs during the crisis.
5. Just because a person has a faith-crisis doesn’t mean they have been breaking the commandments. Sometimes faith-crises happen as they are living the gospel in the most committed way. Sometimes the process of seeking a spiritual confirmation can cause the faith-crisis, particularly if no such confirmation is forthcoming after high-levels of commitment and effort. Therefore, people who suffer from crises at Church may well be among some of the very righteous.
6. Sometimes, people in a faith-crisis go even deeper into that crises when Ward leaders treat the people as if they are less active or in an out-group. (I experienced this in my second trial of faith). I was actually willing to do certain things, but people would skip over me because I had this label of being less-active. I could feel it.
7. Seemingly active members in your Wards may be coping with a faith crises as this very moment. When people refuse to do certain things, it may well because they are asked to confront their faith-crisis in a way that is threatening to them.
8. Some members in a faith-crisis see open discussion of their faith crisis as creating huge risks to their acceptance within the Ward, to their marriages, and to their reputations. It’s important to fully accept and love people who share information about their faith-crisis, and to not be offended by it.
9. Standard Mormon Answers to a faith-crisis will not always help peole in a faith-crisis; leaders should strive to understand non-traditional ways of dealing with a faith-crisis and be prepared to help members find the path that works the best for them. This might include believing in the gospel in ways that are foreign to the Church leader.
10. Sometimes crises in the Church are a result of personality traits that present unusual challenges to the member in staying active. These can include items such as a creative mind that resists structure, thinks outside the box, or is characterized by strong tendencies toward independence. Harnessing these strengths with an open mind can do much to help such individuals feel accepted and enthusiastic about their Church experience (that’s me, this last one). Allowing such member to use creative, non-standard methods which are not morally wrong can help them feel enthusiastic and less-frustrated with their Church experience.
11. Learn to diagnose the nature of the person’s crisis — whether born out of faith-related items, lack of acceptance, or challenges to their commitment, even though they have faith. Treating acceptance and commitment crises as faith crises only lessens the power of the SMA’s to the individual. Take time to diagnose the underlying nature of their crisis.
12. Learn how to protect members who are in a crises, lest Wards and Stakes actually deepen the crisis.
I honestly think there is a lot of room for research on intervention strategies (or non-intervention strategies) to help people in the various types of crises. However, this list is meant to simply help leaders develop empathy.
I’m sure we could add more to this list.
These are great SD. I really like your ideas. I especially relate to numbers 1, 5, 8, and 9. The thing that hurt the most this last time was this bishop treating us like we were bad or screwed up people for having doubts about the church, BofM, JS etc. He basically bore his testimony the day after talking to us in a fast and testimomy meeting that anyone that does not get a testimony of the bof M after reading it, fasting, and praying within a short time (like two weeks) is just talking themselves out of it (verses talking themselves into it I guess.). Anyway, I really value everyone’s advice on this group.
Fatherof4husbandof1 wrote:
I was taught the churches methods for evaluating what is true, and what “truth” is. I taught it for two years straight out of the approved discussions and went back to the MTC to help others learn to teach it, much later when I learned and continue to learn the “dark” side of the church,I use that same method that I was taught by the church to evaluate truthand IMO the church fails the test f4h1
Yep. So if the church teaches such a great and divine principle about how to find truth. And that principle is true and leads one to discover that the organization that promoted it is not true, what do you have? A paradox!!!!
:crazy: Quote:A paradox is a true statement or group of statements that leads to a contradiction or a situation which defies logic or intuition. The term is also used for an apparent contradiction that actually expresses a non-dual truth such as two true sentences which put together seem incompatible as both being true.
Old-Timer wrote:Maybe so, f4h1 – but does it fail the test if the test is graded on a curve? Just a different way of framing it, but I was in a different church today, and . . . I’ll just refer back to my question.
There are great services out there (not the one I attended today), but do the churches pass the test any better than the LDS Church – especially when it comes to the overarching theology?
Kind of depends on the viewpoint of the person who creates the test, I suppose.
I agree, it does seem to me that other churches fair no better at passing that test either. I must also admit when I wrote that post I was still a little upset at the perpetuation of the same old party lines that I hear again and again at church. Your point is valid and a good counter balance to my previous post.
Especially tonight as we had dinner with the Elders and they shared a message with us, I felt a profound peace and love. I have more questions than answers right now. But as far as less active members go, I feel better able to accept them and serve them even if they never come back to church.
F4h1
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