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I’m a BYU student dating a relatively recently returned missionary. She is a TBM but willing to listen to and seek to understand my perspectives which I readily share. She does not try to make me change my point of view and she considers me active and faithful. Unfortunately, we have struggled with morality. We have not had sex of any kind and everything has been consensual. She feels more guilty about it than I do but we have had good conversations about shame and negative sexual conditioning in Church culture. She decided she wanted to talk to the bishop which I reluctantly supported. I have deep distrust for Provo YSA bishops in large part because my sister was very severely hurt by interactions with them. I warned my girl friend of leadership roulette and told her that it is not useful to go if he doesn’t help her. I also cautioned her not to answer any questions she doesn’t feel comfortable with and not to go into detail about our/her morality issues. We agreed that she would say that she was struggling with morality and looking for advice, and hopefully the interview would be helpful but not inappropriate or harmful. The interview did not go well. She explained that she began just as we discussed. The bishop asked for more detail and she said we engaged in ‘heavy petting’ (whatever that means). The bishop promptly took her temple recommend away which included a personalized recommend holder given to her on her mission. Seizing or destroying a temple recommend is obsolete now because everything has to be cancelled online anyway. I feel that taking the recommend, and especially the holder, was an act of intimidation. My girlfriend told me she was scared during the interview and felt pressured to answer questions about her past sins (before our relationship) and other questions she was uncomfortable with, including my name. She did not feel that he cared about her. She was asked if she had considered ending the relationship and was told that she should or otherwise stop the immoral behavior in order to get married in the temple. I feel that his black and white interpretation is manipulative because it motivates her/us to behave the way bishop instructs using the fear of ending our relationship. We have tried constantly to keep high standards and we fail over and over again. We understand that there exists ambiguity between the real and the ideal and that the grace of Christ is sufficient to reconcile. I do not feel that I (or we) have the strength to keep the bishop’s standards thus preventing us from getting married in the temple. I cannot think of a solution. I feel despair.
Besides general support, I am searching for advice. The bishop wants to meet with me. I know my way around a temple recommend interview. I am concerned that in these types of interviews the bishop is freer to ask as the spirit or else his own conscience directs and I won’t be prepared for everything. I intend to tell him how he made my girl friend feel and ask for the recommend holder back. I have thought about writing an email and copying the SP but in my experience this SP is just as pharisaical and even more arrogant. It makes me wonder which GA he might be related to.
Thank you for your help in advance
I am sorry to hear this. I remember our days as a Young Adults and how hard it was to keep our hands of each other. I think everyone would rather these darn urges weren’t so strong. My empathy goes out to you my friend. I know how hard it is. Given the black and white behavior of your BP and SP, now is
notthe time to stand up to them about anything — not the TR recommend holder, not the way he made her feel, or anything. Not the dismay about asking you to end the relationship, or the perceived manipulation. They are judge, jury and executioner. Object to nothing. I think you are right to share only as much as have to in order to either make him stop asking or satisfy him, and err on the side of vagueness whereever possible without appearing you are hiding something. I don’t know what your gfriend told him, but it sounds like she got off with a TR revocation and no discipline — correct? I would tell him the same amount of detail and no more in hopes of the same outcome for you. I would also initiate a meeting with him now that you’re on his radar if he is your bishop, as coming forth is also considered as sign of repentance. it will strengthen your case.
And I would just do whatever they say you have to do in order to be considered repentant, while also being as sincere as possible. Unfortunately, they hold all the power of the temple, of your membership, your involvement at church. You can retain the relationship with your GF if you want, I don’t think they can dictate that you break up, but I would be squeaky clean doing whatever it takes in order to stay on the chastity path until you can get married, if that is in the cards.
Also, to both of you — don’t press for restoration of the recommend as some BP’s and SP’s treat this as a sign that you aren’t repentant. The leaders like to feel they are in control, and the “I will do whatever you want” attitude they expect from you is often considered repentance and humility.
It’s sad the leaders are so harsh about such things at times in their manner.
My goal if I were you would be for you and your girlfriend to NOT let this interfere with your relationship if you both love each other and want to continue. He was wrong to counsel you to break up over this alone, in my view. Strong hormones between a couple who love each other is a very good thing in my view. And I’m glad that’s part of the equation for after marriage.
But don’t say that he was wrong. Also, jump through the hoops that the Bishop wants. Don’t read the Miracle of Forgiveness or it may well throw you into depression unless he forces you to. And if so, do so with a grain of salt for compliance reasons. This may be a thing of the past decades ago, but I mention it as it was standard fare for people in your situation a few decades ago. That has to be the harshest book out there and not good for mental health. One bishop even told me that in one of our Bpric meetings 10 years ago. Share your regrets for what happened, your prayers for forgiveness, how awful you feel about the whole thing, your resolve not to let it happen again. Bring up whatever feelings of repentance you have to get past this. Up your commitment at church and activity level.
You are basically digging yourself out of a hole.
It’s strange, isn’t? God gives us these urges which if expressed with the person you love and may want to marry before marriage are considered sinful. After marriage, they are encouraged and part of a healthy relationship.
Also, there are ways of taking the bite out of those sexual urges for men that are completely acceptable to bishops and SP’s of the most orthodox kind, and I’m not talking about the “M” word. Private message me if you want and I”ll share.
Hope that he suggests another meeting at some point. If he revokes your TR then you want him to offer to give it back rather than asking for it.
I also think there is a bit of guidance for your girlfriend in this. Yes, the church teaches about confession but if you have faith issues, you really expose yourself to a lot of risk if you share them with local leaders. The unpredictability of your BP’s behavior in this situation is a case in point….I am very careful what I tell our local leadership when it comes to faith or doubt or even concerns about aspects of church culture. To the point they keep asking me to be in leadership. You want to always keep your cruising range wide open if you think like me on faith issues.
One question — have you shared your own unorthodox attitudes (doubts etcetera) with your girlfriend? For me, it’s one thing to not share them with local leaders, but if dating a TBM who believes the gospel in a traditional sense, this could impact the marriage if she finds out later on. She could feel betrayed or hoodwinked, and this could hurt your marriage. As much as it might seem risky to do so, I encourage full disclosure of all the big picture warts and weaknesses that could impact the marriage eventually, and this is one of them.
Sometimes people get married while traditional believers, and then one of the people become unorthodox or start doubting — that is a different thing as the marriage was entered into honestly. But to be doubting or unorthodox, and knowing this before marriage, and letting the fiancee believe you are orthodox when you aren’t is problematic and could really impact your marriage at some point. I am not sure if this is an issue for you, but I would consider if it I were you.
Anyway, I hope you will lean on us for support as we all have different opinions. Good luck, I know you must be feeling quite a bit of stress right now, and my heart goes out to you.
I generally agree with SD. Not only does the Bishop have full discretion to revoke your TR, he can also cause trouble for the two of you in regards to BYU honor code violations.
DW and I also could barely keep our hands off of each other during our courtship and engagement. We did engage in heavy petting. We did talk to our respective bishops. There was guilt and a repentance plan put in place. We were planning a temple wedding. We did what was necessary to get married. That included both not crossing certain boundaries (you may need to place restrictions on how and when you see each other) and not feeling the need to tell the bishop about every passionate kiss.
Do you want to marry your GF?
If so, I would reveal that to the bishop and basically ask him for a repentance plan. You are contrite and willing to do whatever it takes to be able to kneel across the alter from your intended.
If you are not looking to get married then things get more complicated. I feel that I was more motivated to abide by the repentance plan because that is what it took to get married, there was a “light at the end of the tunnel”. I might have been less successful if I did not have that definite and upcoming goal in mind.
I forgot about the Honor Code. Good point Roy. Another big thing to consider. You’ve got cheap tuition at a good school with a good reputation, good completion rates, and high starting salaries — I saw the statistics on it when researching for a course I was taking. I’d hang on to that with all my might. And it’s further incentive to put off the physical side of things until marriage. notwithstanding the understandable power of sexuality. I’d consider reading that Honor Code over to see the implications of what’s happened so at least you go into your Bishop knowledgeable. And keep all this close to the vest as far as your friends are concerned. Maybe I’m paranoid, but peoples’ loyalty in the church appears to be the priesthood line first in many cases, and you don’t want others complicating things for you and your girlfriend by reporting their version of what they think you did.
There has been some good advice thus far, so I am going to look at it from a slightly different angle: the way you framed the post and phrased the title. I believe we do a horrible job in the Church in the way we teach and handle many things related to sexuality, but, to be fair to Bishops, the lines for unmarried people (especially at church universities) are pretty cut-and-dried. If part of a Bishop’s responsibility is to enforce those lines, he can’t do so selectively. It pretty much has to be all-or-nothing.
I don’t like some of the elements in the way your Bishop appears to have handled the situation, but “sowing despair” is a strong way to phrase it – since it puts all of the responsibility on him for the entire situation. You and your girlfriend are the ones whose actions are not in line with the common view of the Law of Chastity, as popularly interpreted at BYU. You sewed the seeds of your current despair. It wasn’t your Bishop. He might have watered those seeds, but he didn’t sow them.
You need to understand and accept that first. Then you need to figure what you will do moving forward.
Can you two abstain from things that will get you in trouble at BYU? Are you serious about this relationship? Will her conscience allow her to continue to cross common lines without hurting or killing her emotionally and spiritually? How much self-control do you have? Can you refrain for her, if she wants to slow down physically? Etc.
You (both) have to take responsibility for your own actions, whether or not you feel like you need to repent for them, and you (both) need to answer the sort of questions I just asked – and go from there.
After marriage, my wife and I realized how easy it would’ve been to cross those lines. I’m grateful we didn’t. I don’t know where you stand with the Church in your beliefs, or what you’re hoping will happen. Some bishops take their jobs very seriously, to the letter of the law (Jehovah Bishops). Others are very focused on taking each case and working out what’s best for the individual (Christ Bishops). Most are somewhere inbetween.
I’m mostly agnostic, but I am still a big believer in the LoC as a precept. There’s a lot of heartache that can come from letting sexuality get out of hand. But what’s done is done, and the very best thing is to make sure it doesn’t happen again. My Mission President once said, “When you do something wrong, feel bad enough to never do it again. And then stop feeling bad.” The whole repentance process is to keep us from making the same mistakes over and over again.
Oscar Wilde once said, “It is the confession, not the priest, that gives us absolution.” I’m not saying he’s a good source of inspiration or morality, but I do really buy into that. If you can’t talk to the bishop, talk with someone about it. Being open and honest, as well as having a solid support system is key for positive change. But it is a requirement for a temple recommend. I believe in the precept of honesty than anything else. Don’t lie your way through the Church. And whatever you believe, do all you can to live it to the best of your ability.
Correct me if I am wrong but I get the feeling you are strong arming your GF a bit or more. Years later, after the wedding cake is gone and honeymoon is over, this maybe a problem. I am not saying you are, but if I read your typed words, she has a different feeling about things. Perhaps more guilt, more fear, or early regret. Yes passions run high. That makes neither of you bad or evil. It doesn’t even make what you did (however it’s defined bad) but you both were taught an ethic code. It sounds like you have found peace in distancing yourself from a code not written by you or on your heart. She may not be in the same place.
None of that belongs to the Bishop, no matter how nice or nasty he was/is. Maybe take some space as a couple. Let her have some time to answer her true feelings in her heart. You do the same. You both owe it to your future spouse.
You get a good range of advice here. Sometimes we can support each other by gently challenging each other’s thinking. I encourage you to read through each post carefully and try to be self-reflective about the issue. Ultimately we want for you and your girlfriend to consider each other’s hopes, desires, and needs in mature, fair, and compassionate ways. And if certain advice does not seem to apply to your situation, it is ok to discard that advice and only apply what does.
Roy wrote:
You get a good range of advice here. Sometimes we can support each other by gently challenging each other’s thinking. I encourage you to read through each post carefully and try to be self-reflective about the issue. Ultimately we want for you and your girlfriend to consider each other’s hopes, desires, and needs in mature, fair, and compassionate ways.And if certain advice does not seem to apply to your situation, it is ok to discard that advice and only apply what does.
I agree with Roy. but I do want to add that we can’t completely absolve the bishop of everything. I think he had no place in suggesting a break up. One Bishop I reported to as a counselor told me never to come between a couple. It’s their business about their relationship. And I have seen the power of the church influence on otherwise good relationships for the negative and detriment of all — firsthand. Heck, I had one Bishop’s counselor tell my wife that when HE was less active like I was, that his wife threatened divorce to straighten him up. He PUT THAT IDEA into my wife’s head. Completely unacceptable. I often wonder how these leaders can so quickly forget that eternal family is part of our mission.
Although you are not married yet, I do think the Bishop is out of line. And he could have been more loving. But unfortunately, he’s the guy with all the power, so you have to do what is necessary to satisfy him, not challenge him, and be a humble, repentent soul now that the cat is out of the bag. If he thinks you are not repentent, there is a chance he’ll take stronger action than he did with your GF. And that means not sharing any dismay or concern about his decisions or manner or even restrictions or requirements he puts on you.
Good luck, I hope you and your GF are still able to find inner peace amidst this situation until it passes.
Also realize that they are scratching the bottom of the barrel for bishops at BYU. I’ve heard from my relatives that live in the area that they are always looking for Bishops, and any male MP holder that can walk and talk and wears a white shirt to church will eventually get called as a bishop for 3 years. So in a regular stake the SP can normally choose a Bishop with some semblance decorum. Chances of getting a bishop with bad bedside manners (pun intended) are much higher in a YSA ward in Provo/Orem. Leadership roulette is a real thing at BYU – but there are plenty of excellent Bishops there, as well. Just saying.
Quote:Also realize that they are scratching the bottom of the barrel for bishops at BYU. I’ve heard from my relatives that live in the area that they are always looking for Bishops, and any male MP holder that can walk and talk and wears a white shirt to church will eventually get called as a bishop for 3 years. So in a regular stake the SP can normally choose a Bishop with some semblance decorum. Chances of getting a bishop with bad bedside manners (pun intended) are much higher in a YSA ward in Provo/Orem.
This is a really good point. My experience with bishops has been overwhelmingly positive but I wouldn’t say it’s been the case for my children. One of my daughters attended a ward that had an INCREDIBLE bishop. He was so positive and uplifting and his wife equally so. When my daughter got married, she invited him and his wife to the sealing. And yet this same daughter had another bishop who, when she went in to discuss an issue, didn’t even realize she was in his ward. Both were YSA wards. I think staffing is a huge issue in most areas of the Church. I’m sorry that Biologist’s girlfriend didn’t get a more compassionate leader. There’s some great people out there and there are some people who simply should not be given leadership responsibilities.
Old Timer wrote:
Leadership roulette is a real thing at BYU – but there are plenty of excellent Bishops there, as well.Just saying.
I have a kid at the Y right now and he loves his current bishop. He seems to be a different mode. He said the other week they were having a meeting in a room and someone came in from being in the foyer attending a different ward. The person said, “Can you keep it down, I can’t feel the spirit with all this noise.” The bishops response was something like, well you had better learn how to feel the spirit even with some noise. Just wait until you have kids and never have any peace. Then turned his back to the person that stepped in and kept driving his meeting. But at the same time he said he was very good at loving people. I guess you have to be in his ward to be loved by him.
Update and Clarification. My girl friend and I read these responses together and we are both grateful for all of your feedback. She is very aware of my unorthodox understandings of the Church. In fact, we talked about it before our first date. I don’t think I was right to say she is a TBM. She was actually a little offended that I did because we both feel that the term is often used in a derogatory way on the forum, although she knows I did not mean it in that way. She shares many of my unorthodox views but I am a little more extreme. We often discuss our views together and I think that that is a healthy part of our relationship.
My girl friend had a really good experience with her YSA bishop before her mission. She had committed the same transgressions that we have with a different guy and the bishop was very loving and supportive during her meetings with him. She always left feeling better. (I understand that circumstances were a little different because she hadn’t been endowed yet). It is true that there are great bishops out here. My sister had experiences with both extremes. Unfortunately, the bad bishop left her severely damaged. I feel anger which I recognize as irrational towards my current bishop because of this paradigm. I neglected to mention that our current bishop did not talk about Jesus Christ, the Atonement, love, or grace in my girl friend’s interview with him. It is incomprehensible to me that a person can go to a bishop seeking help through the repentance process and never talk about Christ during the exchange
I met the bishop last night at a ward activity. I got a hair cut and shaved my beard before the activity. I figured I’d have to choose my battles. He is a brand new bishop (although he had been a family ward bishop in the past) so I hadn’t talked with him before. I introduced myself to him with my girl friend at my side and we talked candidly for at least 15 minutes. I told him I’d have an appointment set with him within a week and he seemed happy to hear that. He appears to be a nice guy when he’s off the judgement seat.
My views on the Law of Chastity
I have held these views since before I had the issues we are facing now. In other words, my views are not the result of my transgressions. Wordsworth found that rules of sonnet making do not in fact constrain but actually make possible poetic form. I think the LoC is founded on a similar principle. I have always and still do intend to wait until I’m married to have sex. I think most of us agree on what is classified as sin, but disagree a little more on the gravity. I believe that our transgressions up to this point, the worst of which is ‘heavy petting,’ is a sin inasmuch as looking on a woman to lust after her is a sin. I read an article about a psychology study done at BYU about pornography in marriage. The study found that perception of pornography addiction is more important than actual pornography use in predicting many outcomes, and that the level of religious belief was especially important in predicting negative outcomes from porn use. I believe that relationship problems which are centered around sexual transgression are more associated with unhealthy, manufactured shame than the sin itself.
Thanks again for your support. I really appreciate it.
Thanks for the update. I’m glad you were able to read the thread together and talk. That is a very healthy approach.
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