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Rob4Hope wrote:
Is it wrong to feel lonely? It it wrong to feel hunger inside to be loved and love someone? And, the message of “Well, you just need to have more faith in Christ” can be insulting, at least to me. It negates the feelings as valid in the first place.
i don’t believe it’s wrong to have any kind of impulse — of any kind, no matter how base or embarrassing. But I do believe it’s wrong to act on such impulses in ways that harm others, or that the conscience considers morally wrong.
I used to kick myself all over when I would have sexual thoughts about an attractive girl who walked up to me in a bikini and hugged me or kissed me on the cheek as a greeting. I now realize that was unnecessary suffering. Now, if I started behaving in ways the violated my conscience afterwards, then I would have to make corrections as I feel responsible for the way I react to those impulses.
SilentDawning wrote:Quote:Rob4Hope wrote:
Is it wrong to feel lonely? It it wrong to feel hunger inside to be loved and love someone? And, the message of “Well, you just need to have more faith in Christ” can be insulting, at least to me. It negates the feelings as valid in the first place.
i don’t believe it’s wrong to have any kind of impulse — of any kind, no matter how base or embarrassing. But I do believe it’s wrong to act on such impulses in ways that harm others, or that the conscience considers morally wrong.
I used to kick myself all over when I would have sexual thoughts about an attractive girl who walked up to me in a bikini and hugged me or kissed me on the cheek as a greeting. I now realize that was unnecessary suffering. Now, if I started behaving in ways the violated my conscience afterwards, then I would have to make corrections as I feel responsible for the way I react to those impulses.
SD, I understand your position, and also agree that basic feelings–core feelings if you will–are NOT bad. Once heard a psychologist (one of the few I actually agreed with) say that all base feelings and needs are good–they are God given and there for a purpose. But, that is NOT the case in the general TBM community…
Lots of discussions are happening on this board about the GAY community, many about the BSA dilemma, some about marriage, men issues, and so forth–but it appears that in the midst of all of those, there is always a prescription for what constitutes not only correct behavior, but correct “feelings” in the first place.
For example, the LDS ban on GAY leaders for the BSA group is perplexing. The faith says that a gay man can have a temple recommend as long as he doesn’t act on his feelings, but he can’t be a leader of other boys because he has those feelings in the first place? Everyone here knows this sends a mixed message–but the difficult part is the restriction is because of those feelings in the first place. So, all of the sudden we have an exception to the rule I mentioned above: a core feeling really isn’t good after all.
It appears, in the context of this specific thread, that gay man would do better in the LDS Faith if they were to kill their feelings completely and become totally asexual people; they would be able to participate in all LDS activities, including charter scout groups, and would be able to hold a recommend….but alas, the bubble pops, because after they are 30, they can’t be temple works and single (I think someone said that is a policy as well).
Well, I guess you can’t win can you.
So, perhaps the goal isn’t necessarily to remove desire to avoid suffering; perhaps the goal is to remove all feelings so as not to feel anything, and that way you can’t be condemned for having some type of feeling or desire that is proscribed against.
Just an interesting twist.
I think many feel that one goal of this life is to remove any desire to do wrong and then you are like God. If they see homosexual attraction as counter to God, then the ONLY way to become like God would be to get rid of those desires. LookingHard wrote:I think many feel that one goal of this life is to remove any desire to do wrong and then you are like God. If they see homosexual attraction as counter to God, then the ONLY way to become like God would be to get rid of those desires.
I agree.
The pathway is slippery,…because it can easily move into all kinds of desires, not just gay feelings. And, the thing it spills into is anything that has to do with pleasure for the sake of pleasure. Its all about: “Well, enjoy yourself,..
BUT NOT TOO MUCH!“. Temperance, when proscribed by well meaning TBM leadership is a case in point. Anyway, I’ve certainly learned I have to cut my own pathway, regardless of other’s feelings or opinions.
LookingHard wrote:I think many feel that one goal of this life is to remove any desire to do wrong and then you are like God. If they see homosexual attraction as counter to God, then the ONLY way to become like God would be to get rid of those desires.
But when you come across something you were taught goes against God’s will or is wrong, but in your personal study, reflection, and experience doesn’t feel wrong, instead of causing stress and angst to be feeling the desires are wrong, another option is to clarify what is right and wrong.The church has clarified that the homosexual attraction is not a sin. So a person doesn’t have to work on getting rid of the desires, even according to recent church teaching. It is still a sin to have intercourse outside of marriage, focusing on the action not the desire.
So, some suffering is eased by clarifying which desires need to be removed, and which are just natural and fine but we were self-imposing suffering by not understanding the principles correctly, or by conflating issues and teachings.
For example, if family makes you feel guilty for drinking coke, but now the church has clarified caffeinated soda is not part of the word of wisdom, suffering no longer has to accompany drinking soda. It is gone. It never should have been there. The desire wasn’t the problem.
If the suffering is caused by a desire that is truly negative and bad…then one can bring oneself into alignment with the universal rules by changing behaviors to avoid the suffering that is sure to follow as a natural consequence of an unhealthy desire.
So there are two paths:
1. Remove unhealthy desires
2. Clarify what is healthy vs unhealthy so you don’t suffer unnecessarily
Heber13 wrote:
The church has clarified that the homosexual attraction is not a sin. So a person doesn’t have to work on getting rid of the desires, even according to recent church teaching. It is still a sin to have intercourse outside of marriage, focusing on the action not the desire.
I think this shift in the LDS church is a BIG step forward. Lots of people have been hurt in the process, but at least there is some relief that is coming to many as well.
Heber13 wrote:
For example, if family makes you feel guilty for drinking coke, but now the church has clarified caffeinated soda is not part of the word of wisdom, suffering no longer has to accompany drinking soda. It is gone. It never should have been there. The desire wasn’t the problem.
Sorry,…when I read this Heber, I remember the movie “Single’s Ward” (or might have been “The RM”). If you’ve seen that, remember the part when they were watching a movie and the girl storms out of the movie just irritated. His friend says something about: “Are you going to be OK?” He explains to his friend that it is pretty serious because: “She found some empty Dr. Pepper cans in my back seat.”
The people in the theater where this was showing were ROLLING, and next to me was a non-member who looked around at everyone like they were crazy. It was hillarious just to see his response. He had no idea what was going on!
Heber13 wrote:
So there are two paths:1. Remove unhealthy desires
2. Clarify what is healthy vs unhealthy so you don’t suffer unnecessarily
There is a third one: hang out with TBM who don’t believe you have any right whatsoever to question what the GAs say about something–neither adding to nor taking away, and hence, subject yourself to more guilt, more self loathing, and more frustration.
Option 4. Stop hanging out with people who make you feel that way. Or dating women who storm out of the room over soda cans. That is why the movie is poking fun of it…because when you see it on the TV screen…it really does look ridiculous. Because it is.
That is an important way to relieve suffering…start seeing things as they really are…not as some people make them out to be.
Heber13 wrote:Option 4. Stop hanging out with people who make you feel that way. Or dating women who storm out of the room over soda cans.
Changing friends itself can be invigorating!
🙂 That’s what my friends keep telling me….maybe I wasn’t getting the hint from them. 
Whats that song again?: “I hate friends and friends hate me,…so we are happy family?”… Oops…that not right….
:crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:
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